Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Tina Ramirez,
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we were solving the problems
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of the Middle East
and Syria in particular.
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Trying.
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But recognizing
that there's definitely
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a strong religious component.
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This is not a secular
conflict primarily, is it?
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No. It might
have began that way.
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Right, and I
think for a long time,
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the United States in particular,
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but a lot of people in
the West have miscalculate
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the religious
dimension of the conflict
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in the Middle East,
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and in particular
in Syria and Iraq.
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And to really address
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these recurrence
cycles of violence
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that we see
there that are fueling
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so much terrorism in the world,
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you can't ignore
religious grievances
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or this religious bigotry
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or extremism, intolerance, fear,
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you just can't ignore it.
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It can't be suppressed,
and it can't be fueled.
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And so, one of the things
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that Hardwired
does in that region
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is provide education training
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to teach leaders of
all different factions
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whether they're Islamic brother,
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Muslim brotherhood leaders
or, you know, you name it,
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across the gamut of
religious communities
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that there's a space
for freedom of religion
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in order to have a society
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where you can
express your freedom
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and not live in fear
of somebody else taking
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that freedom away.
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I think it's not just an ideal.
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That should be the
reality of human existence.
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The standard. Exactly.
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But how do you
deal in the Middle East,
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like everywhere else?
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There's many people
that are born into Islam,
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you know, that they
don't know a lot about it,
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they go through the
emotions and that...
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But Islam itself, in the
Quran and all of the close
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theological interpretation
insist pretty strongly
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that the religion
is all encompassing,
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that there is
not a secular state
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and then the church here.
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So separation
of church and state
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is not just a bad
reality with Islam.
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It really goes to the root
of its thinking about reality,
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doesn't it?
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How do we deal with that?
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We definitely a see
a trend in the world.
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That's not just
in Muslim communities
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but in Hindu communities,
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and even in some
Christian communities
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across the world
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where people
associate their identity
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with their religion.
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Ah, yes.
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And so, then because
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this is so tied
into their identity,
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there's a fear of losing
your sovereignty as a nation
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or your power as a
nation, your identity as nation
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when your
religion is threatened,
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where the dominant religion
in a country is threatened,
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and so, we see this
fueling a lot of conflict,
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but ultimately what
it comes down to is fear,
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you know, we see
this in America too.
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We have
Christian majorities are...
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Not majorities necessarily,
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but, you know, traditionally
they have been majorities
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that are fearful
of losing position
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of prominence in the community
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when the society
becomes more secular.
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And so, there's this pendulum
that swings of overreacting,
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and you have to be very careful
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with that in any
country and society,
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not just in Islamic ones.
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It's a trend that
we see everywhere.
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And so, what we do as Hardwired
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when we go in and we work
with leaders, diverse leaders,
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so we bring together in Iraq,
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for instance, the
Christian, Yazidi,
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the Baha'i, the atheist,
the Zoroastrian, the Muslim.
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See, you've got
every one in the same room.
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They're all
afraid of each other,
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but somehow they need
to learn to live together,
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you know, to work out it out,
and they were glued together,
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or else they
don't have a country.
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They're just going to
descend into constant chaos.
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And maybe it's got so bad
that they have to see that,
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you're right...
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Well, yeah, when
you hit rock bottom,
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there's only one
way, up which is good,
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so in Iraq, they've
definitely gone there.
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And what we've seen is amazing
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because we see these communities
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through the training program
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we do where we
bring them together,
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and they are
forced to face their fears
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of one another,
their misconceptions,
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their prejudices, their
bias, and work through those,
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and begin to understand
the value of religious freedom
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for one another
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that their rights
are tied together,
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that they can have
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the freedom of
belief and expression
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unless you have yours.
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Even if those two
beliefs contradict one another
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that there is a
right to be wrong
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in a public space
where freedom exists.
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And it's amazing that
in a society like Iraq
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where we see so much conflict
that that's actually happening.
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We have a core
group of 25 leaders
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that are doing
amazing things across Iraq
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to defend religious freedom.
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We don't even see
that here in our country.
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So in some ways, it
actually brings me hope
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because I wish
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that we could
see that in America,
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like we see it in Iraq,
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and it's not a
perfect place or situation,
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but it's, you know,
it's like I shared with you
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before about the Muslim leader,
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the Muslim judge who,
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when ISIS beheaded
his youngest brother
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said to me,
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"Tina, this is the fate
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that awaits every person in Iraq
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if we don't stand up
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for religious
freedom for everyone."
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Oh, no, they're
faced with stark choices,
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there's no question.
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And you visit
there enough, of course,
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to be very perceptive
on the religious situation,
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what role does
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the tribal
loyalties play into this
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'cause this is not immaterial
to what's happening there?
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Because people see themselves
as a religious community
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but also with
these tribal identities,
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that community
can be quite small
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and definitely marked.
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We have tribalism,
and then you have just,
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you know, in general,
more overreaching ethnic,
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loyalties of the Kurds
and the Sunni and the Shia
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and different,
somewhat different...
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Bit like
Saddam, was to Tikritis,
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which was largely
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the semi-tribal
community based on Tigris.
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Yeah, in Iraq, I would say
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that those two
dimensions are always...
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They're always at
work, so you've got...
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You kind of
wish of three things,
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you know, when
you're facing constantly
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that the race,
ethnicity, the religion.
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And so, you're
always seeing that,
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but I think at the core of it,
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without a fundamental baseline
of respect for the freedom
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of conscience of
one another with...
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People are
constantly living in fear
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of the motives
of the other person
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in that society
because for generations,
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they've been attacking
one another and trying to...
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One group's trying to put,
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you know, assert authority
and power over the other.
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The Shias over the Sunnis,
the Turkmen over the Arabs,
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you know, you name it,
the Kurds over whoever.
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And so, until you
really address those fears
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that are underlying a lot
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of the reoccurring
cycles of violence,
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you'll never
really get to the root
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cause of the problem.
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I remember on a
beach in Bermuda meeting
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this fellow and his family,
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and they said that
they had come from Lebanon
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and asked them why
they moved and so on.
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They weren't living in Bermuda,
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but they were
visiting from the US.
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And he said...
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I think they
were Eastern Orthodox,
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but it got so...
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They were
Christians, it got so bad
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that when they send
the kids off to school,
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they get on the bus,
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and the bus driver
would ask them their names.
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Now you could...
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They could tell instantly
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from their names
they were Christians.
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Right, where they're from.
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And he said, that made us
feel for what would happen
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to our children
on the way to school.
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They've been identified clearly.
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So that's the level of suspicion
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and fear in some
of those countries.
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When Saddam fueled that first.
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And, of course, Lebanon's been
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through the civil wars
in their lifetime, too.
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Yeah, and one of the things
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that we've seen like in Lebanon,
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for instance,
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is when we're
working with teachers there
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is that they often say,
"We all have great freedom.
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We all just live separately.
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So the Christians live
here, the Jews live here."
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But living separately is not...
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It's not freedom.
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It means that you're not
actively engaging one another
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because you're
afraid of one another still.
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And fear can be one
of the greatest factors
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to cause conflict, and so,
unless you really address that,
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it's going to
reoccur and a lot of people
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probably don't know
this, but Baghdad and Iraq...
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The cities in Iraq
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are the epicenter for
one of the greatest conflicts
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within Islam between
the Sunnis and Shias.
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I mean, the two family
factions that were at war.
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Well, it's all over
the succession, wasn't it?
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So it is all over
succession, so I mean, you have
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one of the greatest
battles within Islam
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which created, you know,
these two factions occurred
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within Iraq, and it's
still is an under current
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that you see in the conflict
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between those
communities and the mistrust.
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Well, it's more than
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an under current
there, on the larger stage.
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It's pretty big.
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Saudi Arabia is against
Iran for precisely that reason.
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Right, right,
right, and it spills over.
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But it's...
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But Iraq is the
place where it began,
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and I don't think that
that a lot of people know
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that within the history
of what's going on in there.
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Well, Iraq is really arguably
the cradle of civilization.
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It is. It is.
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And sadly, it's
Babylon of the Bible.
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The Euphrates,
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and the drying up of
Euphrates at the end of time.
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It resonates on every level,
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from history,
theology, prophecy.
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Yeah, we actually...
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So we work with a
Kurdish Muslim leader
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who is very interested in
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because it's
just bread basket of,
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you know, the
Middle East and the world,
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trying to bring
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all the different
communities back together,
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and really focus
on the agriculture
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and on building
more peaceful garden,
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and a peaceful community.
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With the hanging
gardens of Babylon times.
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Yes. Yeah, well.
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No, but it's very good
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that they're
rebuilding a community,
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rebuilding trust, not
putting aside religion,
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you're not trying to say
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that religion's immaterial
to people at all, are you?
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No, I think that
that's what we realized
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is that in order
to really address
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this root conflict,
root cause of the conflict,
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you have to address the
religious dimension of it,
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and so, it's exciting
to see what's happening
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in Kurdistan today
where they're beginning
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to have an
educational curriculum
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that incorporates
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the religious
diversity of the country
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and, you know, as
Hardwired, we're working there
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to help them
implement it in a way
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that teaches children
to value religious freedom,
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so we can see
generations that will grow up
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not with the animosities
and the tensions of the past,
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but they will grow up
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with a new vision for the future
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that incorporates everyone.
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Whenever you
speak about holy war,
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it's worth remembering
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that there's an
in-built contradiction.
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I believe unless you're
talking about God's strange act,
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strange and final
act in dealing with evil.
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There's no such thing as
a holy or sanctified war.
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That said, throughout the ages
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and certainly
during the crusades,
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many people went to war
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with a holy sense
of fulfillment and...
00:10:26.79\00:10:31.56
That they had a contract
00:10:31.59\00:10:33.03
with God to wipe
out their enemies.
00:10:33.06\00:10:36.00
Today, in the Middle East,
00:10:36.03\00:10:37.37
we're seeing a manifestation
of this idea of killing
00:10:37.40\00:10:40.80
in the name of God.
00:10:40.84\00:10:42.34
It is not right,
00:10:42.37\00:10:44.07
it is not the way
forward for human kind.
00:10:44.11\00:10:47.51
It is certainly nothing to do
00:10:47.54\00:10:50.15
with protecting
man's innate right
00:10:50.18\00:10:53.15
and calling to
worship God in the way
00:10:53.18\00:10:55.65
that his conscience requires.
00:10:55.68\00:10:58.72
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:10:58.75\00:11:01.72