Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000387B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break, with guest Tina Ramirez. 00:10 We're talking about Iraq 00:12 and in particular what you are doing, 00:13 dealing with reeducating or educating the young people 00:16 to get past the past, right? 00:19 Yeah, it's really exciting to see what's happening. 00:22 I mean, you have these examples 00:23 as I mentioned where kids are identifying and reacting, 00:28 oh, reenacting things that they have heard 00:31 or witnessed on the playground. 00:33 And at the same time 00:35 you have teachers and government officials 00:37 that are terrified that they know 00:39 that these traumatized or affected youth 00:42 have to be reeducated 00:45 if they want to have a future 00:46 that involves peace and stability 00:48 and unity in their country. 00:50 So that's the space 00:51 that Hardwired is filling right now. 00:53 Yeah. 00:54 And, you know, I must say even editing Liberty magazine, 00:56 I love it. 00:58 I love talking and writing about religious liberty. 01:00 But sometimes I think, 01:02 you know, it's all great and theoretical. 01:04 But what... 01:05 just words and meetings and all the rest, 01:07 but you're really involved in making a difference 01:10 on the ground. 01:11 You know, it's great to be on the ground because... 01:13 For freedom in the future. Right. 01:15 Well, and I think that... 01:16 You know, as we kind of started with this 01:18 that the future of religious freedom in Iraq 01:20 hangs the balance right now. 01:21 We've seen... 01:23 We've seen one of the most 01:24 nihilistic forms of religious bigotry 01:27 in our history or in our time, 01:29 in ISIS, in the last decade. 01:31 Now, and in... 01:33 You know, the past three years 01:35 it's just ravaged the Middle East 01:36 and the Christian community in particular 01:39 is on the verge of extinction, 01:40 the Yazidi community is on the verge of extinction. 01:42 Mandaean community on the verge of extinction and you name it. 01:45 You've got Turkmen, 01:48 number of different communities 01:49 that have just been decimated by the violence. 01:52 And Iraq is now at a point where they realized, 01:55 we cannot go forward, we cannot even... 01:58 It's all or nothing. 02:00 If either we all fall together or we, you know, 02:05 we're gonna have to take a stand. 02:07 So just as an example, 02:08 we had a judge that went through one of our trainings 02:11 and he came back a couple months later, 02:13 they go through a rigorous process, 02:15 so several cycles of training 02:17 until they can really sustain leadership on their own. 02:19 Now whereabouts in Iraq have you been? 02:21 So, all over but this was prominently 02:23 in the north and inner field of the Kurdish areas. 02:26 So this judge was from an area that was 02:28 controlled by ISIS at the time. 02:30 And when he left he was so moved and he said, 02:33 "I'm gonna go and I'm gonna fight for the justice 02:36 for the Yazidis and the Christians 02:37 and all the different communities 02:38 that are persecutors, it's a Sunni Muslim judge. 02:40 So he comes back a couple of months later 02:42 and we asked him how things were going. 02:44 He served on a court that was very important. 02:48 And he showed us his phone 02:49 and on this phone was this image 02:51 of his youngest 17-year-old brother 02:54 being beheaded by ISIS. 02:56 And, I mean, of course, we were shocked 02:58 and we asked him, 03:01 "Are you gonna be able to continue 03:03 defending religious freedom 03:04 and helping these persecuted communities, 03:06 if, you know, if this is what's gonna happen to you?" 03:09 And he said, "Well, this is clearly a warning 03:11 to me from ISIS, and this is what they do, 03:13 they send you a photo to scare you." 03:15 But he said, "If I don't do this, 03:17 if I don't stand up for justice, 03:19 if I don't bring justice to the victims of terrorism, 03:21 then this is the reality in the faith 03:23 that awaits every person in Iraq." 03:25 And so Harwired definitely works 03:27 in some of those difficult parts of the world. 03:28 Scary stuff, isn't it? 03:29 But we work in places 03:31 where people have hit rock bottom. 03:32 And in Iraq they realized that there's only one way up. 03:35 And so we have this amazing opportunity 03:39 now in Iraq that the government in Kurdistan 03:41 has actually invited us 03:43 to reeducate the entire youth population, 03:47 you know, school children. 03:49 And it's about 1.8 million kids. 03:51 Because they realized that if they want to overcome 03:54 the ideologies of hate 03:56 and intolerance that are fueling 03:57 these recurrent cycles of violence 03:59 that are destabilizing their country, 04:01 that they have to ensure that there is a respect 04:04 for the freedom of each other embedded in their culture. 04:07 And so that's what Hardwired has the opportunity to do. 04:11 The Kurdish area has been in a bad story, 04:14 it's been a relatively positive development. 04:18 But do you have any understanding why this is so? 04:23 I mean, before Saddam Hussein was overthrown, you know, 04:27 he was at war against the Kurds. 04:29 And of course in the larger region there had been a war 04:32 with separatist Kurdish elements 04:34 or war with Turkey. 04:36 Yeah, the Kurds have a checkered past I guess... 04:39 Yes, but the Kurds... Yeah. 04:42 As I see it the Kurds are overwhelmingly Islamic, right? 04:46 Yeah, they're predominantly Sunni Muslim, 04:49 but I think it's hard to... 04:50 So what's going on? Why is it better? 04:52 Why they have a more positive feel? 04:54 I think it's hard to look at the Kurds as one monolith, 04:57 because if you remember pre World War I, 04:59 the Kurds encompassed different Kurdish tribes across Iran, 05:03 Syria, Turkey, and Iraq and they were separated. 05:06 So, and even within the Kurdish tribes that you have in Iraq, 05:10 there are different factions you've got. 05:11 You know, Talibani family and the Barzani family 05:14 and so it's different factions. 05:15 But what we've seen in Iraq in particular is, 05:19 because of Saddam's hatred of the Kurds 05:21 and fear of their power, 05:25 you know, ability to have a power base 05:29 in the country, he did attack them. 05:31 And so, then when the US came in, 05:32 in the Persian Gulf War we established a no fly zone. 05:35 The Kurds became kind of an isolated area 05:40 that was very pro western, 05:41 because the West is really the one 05:42 that came in to protect them. 05:44 And so they've been much more open to democracy, 05:46 to some of these ideas 05:48 their freedom of religion belief 05:49 that we're talking about, because of that. 05:51 And they're not... 05:53 There are Kurds that are very religious 05:55 but for the most part Kurds in general 05:57 are not super religious, they're more cultural so... 05:59 That's the impression I've got 06:01 and that's sort of what I was fishing for. 06:02 Yeah. 06:04 Perhaps more than some in that area 06:05 there nominally of a religious identity, 06:07 but not defined by religious identity. 06:09 Well, I think their... 06:11 I think they define themselves more ethnically. 06:12 Yeah, I think that their ethnicity 06:13 and their Kurdish identity 06:15 is far more important in many ways. 06:16 But that's definitely changed in the last decade. 06:19 You see a resurgence of Islam and Islamic identity 06:23 in certain parts of the country. 06:25 But we've even been invited by the government 06:27 to do trainings with the Imams 06:28 and the Imams are very responsive 06:29 to religious freedom. 06:31 So we have one Imam 06:33 that has his own religious school 06:36 and he is just the best example of religious freedom advocate 06:41 that you could have in any country. 06:45 He supports women's rights 06:47 and he's just the sweetest person 06:48 and he's really done a lot of great... 06:52 He's created lessons now on religious freedom 06:53 that he's using in his school. 06:55 So it's very exciting to see what, you know, 06:58 what can happen in that country or in that part of the country. 07:00 You mentioned women's rights, 07:02 you know, one of the visual images 07:03 I have of the Kurdish people's lately, 07:07 their military units, men and women. 07:09 Now you don't see that 07:12 in the whole Middle East normally, 07:14 women are not involved with the military. 07:16 Yeah. But the Kurds are fighters. 07:17 I mean, one of my best friends is a Kurdish woman who... 07:21 She even served with the US military 07:23 and was blown up twice in different, 07:26 you know, Humvee accidents and resilient, resilient, 07:30 but they're strong people, they're mountainous people, 07:33 so they're just naturally strong people. 07:34 That's the impression... I can beat them. 07:36 That's the impression that I've had that 07:38 they are generally in the mountainous areas. 07:40 Well, we have had a great working relationship 07:42 with the Kurdish government. 07:43 So in the past few years that we've been able to run 07:49 trainings in Kurdistan 07:51 because it's the safest part of Iraq. 07:53 We've been able to build a strong relationship 07:56 with the Ministry of Education 07:57 and the Ministry of Religious Affairs. 07:59 And the head of those ministries 08:02 or the director of those ministries 08:03 has been very supportive of the religious freedom rights 08:07 of all the different religious communities in Kurdistan. 08:10 So he's even established seven different positions 08:13 for religious leaders that includes a leader, 08:16 a position for the Bahais, for the Zoroastrians, for... 08:20 Christians? Yes. For Christians. 08:22 For all of the different religious communities 08:24 and even a Jewish leader. 08:26 So I think you may recall we brought 08:28 this Jewish leader to Washington D.C. 08:30 a couple of years ago, so that Congress 08:33 could see this progress that's being made 08:35 in Kurdistan that, that they're recognizing 08:38 the religious diversity. 08:39 They just transformed 08:41 their whole religious education curriculum, 08:42 so that they recognize that diverse religious history 08:45 that exists there. 08:46 This is something that we don't see happening 08:48 anywhere else in the Middle East. 08:49 No, it's unique, it was very positive. 08:50 That they have a Jewish leader, 08:52 that they've incorporated Jewish history 08:54 into their textbooks, in their curriculum. 08:55 I mean, this is very diverse. 08:57 So it's continue... You know, that was what, 08:59 at least a year or two ago, wasn't it? 09:01 Yeah, and we've even met... So it's worked well since then? 09:04 Well, it hasn't been implemented yet. 09:07 They have just... 09:08 They revised the whole curriculum 09:09 and so now they've actually invited Hardwired 09:11 to help them with the implementation. 09:12 So we're gonna be going 09:14 in the next couple of months to trainthe, 09:17 all of the teachers that... 09:18 that are responsible for this curriculum. 09:20 To teach in a way that teaches children 09:22 to value religious freedom. 09:23 So this is really very exciting 09:25 because it will get to the root cause of the problem 09:26 and help them overcome the challenges. 09:28 And I said at the beginning and I'll say it again, 09:30 that's what's so special about your organization. 09:31 Oh, thank you. Yeah. 09:33 You know, they are doing something 09:34 that will make a difference. 09:36 The part of the process, not observing. 09:37 No, we are all about getting results 09:40 and seeing things change in countries around the world. 09:42 I mean, there's... 09:43 For too long we've seen this trajectory 09:45 that you alluded to in the beginning. 09:47 You said 70%, but in 2007, 09:51 67% of the world's population lived in countries 09:53 with severe repression of religious freedom. 09:57 In 2017 that number was 79% of the world's population, 10:01 that's the Pew Research Center. 10:03 So just in a decade we've seen a 12% decline 10:06 and we can't afford for that 10:08 to be the trajectory for the future. 10:11 So this basically tells me again 10:13 that what you're doing 10:14 is what's needed to make the difference. 10:16 The statistics are heading in the wrong direction. 10:20 The centre is falling apart if you like, 10:22 but you have to start with that individual, 10:24 that impressionable young person 10:26 that can make a difference. 10:27 Oh, absolutely. 10:28 You have to start with the young person. 10:30 But I think one of the other things 10:31 that we have to do is, we have to start 10:33 with building local leadership in countries 10:35 where there is no religious freedom. 10:38 Right now we have far too many countries, 10:39 they have no sustainable local leadership 10:42 and unfortunately they can't be the ones, 10:45 we can't have them always depending on a west, 10:49 whether it's the United States or other countries 10:52 to be standing in their defense, 10:54 because we may not always have an administration 10:56 or a government that is willing to. 11:02 I mean, right now it's a very, you know, just... 11:07 People don't... It's a very different time. 11:10 We don't know what to expect out of government leaders 11:12 and what they will stand for or not stand for. 11:13 And so it's really critical that there is 11:15 that local leadership on the ground 11:17 and that's one of the things that Hardwired provides. 11:22 Only a few miles down the river from Baghdad 11:24 is the ancient site of Babylon. 11:27 And all the Biblical imagery that goes with it 11:31 is worth remembering and musing on the fact 11:34 that in these later days 11:36 after the US-led invasion of Iraq 11:40 and the replacing of a dictatorship 11:43 with a slightly dysfunctional but democratic regime, 11:47 that not only are we trying to fix the debris 11:51 and reassemble the debris of a collapsed kingdom. 11:55 But through efforts like Tina Ramirez 11:57 and her organizations, 11:59 we're trying to bring again to a benighted land, 12:02 principles of freedom and liberty. 12:05 And I respect for what God has planted in each of us, 12:09 the ability to seek the divine 12:12 and respect others in that same journey 12:14 and to realize that at the end of the day, 12:17 religious liberty is the ultimate liberty 12:20 that we are liberated toward. 12:23 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-03-22