Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000387A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is the program bringing you news, views, 00:30 information and analysis of religious liberty events 00:34 in the US and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest... 00:42 Thank you for coming back again is Tina Ramirez, 00:44 president and founder of Hardwired. 00:46 Thank you, Lincoln. It's nice to be with you today. 00:48 And that doesn't tell people much about what you do, 00:51 but that's why you're here. 00:52 I want you to explain 00:54 a little bit about your organization, 00:56 and maybe what has been the focal activity 01:01 at least in one country I know about. 01:03 We featured in the Liberty quite a bit. 01:05 What is Hardwired? 01:06 So Hardwired is an organization 01:08 that provides education training 01:10 on religious freedom around the world. 01:12 We believe that we're all hardwired for freedom. 01:14 And so that's what we're trying to do 01:16 is to establish leaders in countries 01:19 where this freedom is at risk so that they can defend it 01:23 and strengthen the protection of this freedom. 01:24 You have a big challenge, 01:26 because 70% of the world 01:27 lives under repressive religious liberty situation. 01:31 But we believe that we can turn the tide against persecution 01:34 if we will begin to establish local leadership 01:37 and education for religious freedom. 01:39 I mean in America, this is something that 01:43 we take it for granted every day. 01:45 If you have an issue, you can go 01:47 anywhere down the street 01:48 and they can defend your religious liberty, 01:50 but the reality is in most of the world 01:52 that there simply isn't someone to turn to defend you 01:55 when you're persecuted. 01:56 And so we're trying to establish 01:58 that local leadership to turn the tide. 02:00 Yeah. Very good. 02:01 And I know in one country in particular, 02:04 this been in the news since after 9/11 in Iraq, 02:08 you really been able to make 02:10 quite a difference, haven't you? 02:11 Yeah, it's been fun to actually write about it 02:13 for Liberty for several years now. 02:15 I think we've had about three, four articles at least. 02:17 Yeah, I know. 02:18 Unfortunately, we were like the bellwether, you know, 02:21 explaining what was gonna happen 02:22 and that happened, and then we just have 02:24 to report on how sad, you know, and the ramifications. 02:29 I mean persecution is one of those things 02:30 that you can see where when a country 02:32 is going south end. 02:33 The situation in Iraq was pretty indicative 02:36 that it wasn't gonna get any better without making 02:39 religious freedom a priority in the country. 02:42 And so for many years, 02:44 when after the United States went in to Iraq 02:47 and overthrew Saddam, you had a very unstable country 02:51 and there was a lot of conflict 02:52 between the different Sunni and Shia factions, 02:55 and religious minorities were really... 02:57 Caught in the middle. Caught in the middle. 02:59 Yeah, a rock between a hard place, so. 03:00 Well, you're jumping ahead of me 03:02 but I wanted to ask you the question 03:03 that I really don't read about or hear about. 03:07 We hear the problem after the fact, 03:10 what was it like before the US led 03:13 invasion Gulf War II bringing down the Saddam, 03:18 what was it like before? 03:19 Did this just suddenly appear, 03:21 all these religious intolerance and persecution? 03:24 What was the antecedent to what missing there? 03:25 No, it's a great question, 03:27 that I was just telling you before the break that we... 03:30 that for the last few years I actually researched 03:31 and wrote a small book on Iraq 03:33 for an organization called "Voice of the Martyrs". 03:36 And it just came out so it talks about the history 03:39 of the church in Iraq, the Christian church, 03:42 and how they've lived under persecution the hope 03:45 in the midst of that darkness that they faced. 03:47 This is not something new for the people of Iraq, 03:49 I mean whether it's for the Christian community 03:51 or the Yazidi community or other religious communities, 03:55 they have been living under persecution and cycles, 03:58 recurrent cycles of violence for generations, 04:01 I mean really for the last 2,000 years 04:03 so this is nothing new. 04:04 It's worth asking the question. 04:06 Now, there's been a lot going on in Iraq lately, 04:10 but ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh depending on you define them. 04:16 They seem to be disappearing as a military force 04:19 and they took over Mosul in Turkey, in Iraq, 04:22 what is happening now with their fade away 04:26 is religious liberty improving in Iraq? 04:30 Well, that's a big question. 04:32 I don't know that you can say that it's improving yet. 04:36 However, of course, you know, 04:38 the people that aren't living under ISIS anymore 04:40 have some reprieve, but you know, 04:44 from the immediate terror of ISIS 04:45 which is a huge benefit 04:48 but I don't know that you would say that, 04:49 just because of that 04:50 they automatically have greater freedom 04:52 or a sense of security in their country. 04:54 Maybe they're just shell shocked 04:56 and it's just what next after... 04:58 And I think it's important for people to understand, 05:00 there were a lot of people, 05:02 millions of people living under ISIS in Mosul 05:04 and other parts of Iraq and Syria, 05:06 but in Mosul in particular, there are 600,000 children 05:09 that were living in Mosul, 05:10 that were indoctrinated to hate for the last three years, 05:14 when they had textbooks teaching them 05:15 one bomb plus one bomb equals two bombs, 05:19 and how to kill people of different faiths, 05:21 et cetera so. 05:23 And girls were not allowed to go to school at all, so... 05:25 Well, you're touching on an issue 05:26 that it's bigger than just this part of the world, 05:28 and I thought about this over the years. 05:30 You know, the Soviet Union used to indoctrinate 05:35 citizens and young people particularly 05:36 against the evils of capitalism in Cuba particularly, 05:40 the evils of imperialism in the US, 05:44 North Korea rather they were indoctrinating their population 05:47 to hate the US in the West, how do you undo that? 05:51 When you teach impressionable young people 05:55 and they grow up that way, 05:56 it's just not undone at the snap of a finger. 05:59 Those are deep seeded views, they must be. 06:01 Yeah. 06:02 Well, there's two issues going on, one, 06:04 I mean you have what ISIS did 06:06 that has severely traumatized the children of Iraq. 06:10 I mean for many of the children of Iraq, 06:12 that's all they've ever known 06:14 is recurrent cycles of religious killings, 06:17 hatred, intolerance, violence, 06:18 think 14 years that we've been there. 06:20 And so those children that's all they've seen 06:23 for the last 14 years. 06:26 That means you have a whole generation 06:27 that's been raised on that, but in addition to that, 06:29 they're living in a culture that has frequently denied 06:33 the most basic inherent right, the freedom of religion. 06:35 And they have seen intolerance in general 06:37 and across their society 06:39 and attacks on minorities or people of diverse faiths. 06:42 So this is, I mean, it happened under Saddam, 06:44 it's been happening for generations, 06:46 this is nothing new. 06:47 And one of the things that Hardwired does is that 06:49 to end that recurrent cycle of violence and hatred, 06:52 the deep seeded ideologies that fueled this, 06:56 you have to get to the root cause of it 06:57 which is really that the beliefs that they have 07:02 and helping to inspire or reeducate them really, 07:08 reeducate them in a way 07:09 that teaches them to value religious freedom. 07:11 That's one of things we're working on with leaders 07:13 but also with children. 07:15 And for children that have lived through ISIS, 07:18 the methods that we're using are extremely vital 07:20 because they're the only methods in Iraq right now 07:22 that are helping children overcome their trauma 07:24 and replace it with values 07:26 that will help them end that recurrent cycle of violence. 07:29 Yeah. 07:30 I know you're on to a good thing 07:32 and doing a wonderful job there. 07:33 And as a counterpoint even to my comment, 07:36 it does seem even though in these different systems 07:40 and ISIS was doing it too, 07:43 indoctrinating young people is very toxic. 07:47 And yet in different places, 07:48 I'm trying to think of the country in Africa 07:50 where there was, the Army of God, 07:54 you know, these little kids that they were abducting 07:56 and then teaching them to be murderers. 07:58 It's amazing in many cases 08:00 how easily once they come into a positive situation 08:02 that all sort of disappears. 08:05 Not exactly. 08:06 I mean, I think you do see the effects of that 08:08 carried on into generations that's why there's recurrent... 08:10 Well, I think it must be, but you read 08:12 such wonderful success stories of kids 08:14 who were hacking people to death 08:15 now are attending a regular school... 08:18 But I think in those countries, 08:20 they've had really specific programs 08:22 that have helped reeducated the children. 08:23 You briefed them in practical. 08:24 And we don't have that right now in Iraq. 08:26 So since ISIS invaded Iraq, you had 18 mass graves 08:32 where they just buried 08:34 and like killed tens of thousands of Yazidis 08:37 and buried them, then you have, on top of that 08:40 6,000 young girls that were trafficked, 08:42 half of which have escaped, about half of which. 08:45 And then you had 900 youth children 08:47 that were the kids of the caliphate, 08:51 they were taught to become Jihadist soldiers. 08:53 And even those children that have escaped 08:56 or that have been kidnapped back out of ISIS, 08:59 when they speak with their parents, 09:00 share how they believe that they are members of ISIS still. 09:03 They don't believe that they're Yazidi anymore. 09:05 They don't even have any respect 09:08 for their former religion or their families, 09:10 and so this is a whole community 09:14 that's just been decimated. 09:15 On top of that, you then have the people 09:17 who have escaped living amongst 09:19 the other communities the Kurds and the Iraqis 09:22 across the country in the region, 09:25 and there's an inability of children to make sense 09:29 of what's happening around them, 09:30 so just as an example, something that we're seeing 09:32 in the schools where we're working, 09:34 one teacher reported 09:36 how she came across a group of young boys playing a game, 09:38 and when she went closer to see what it was, 09:40 she was terrified 09:42 because the boys were playing a game 09:43 where they were beheading another student. 09:46 To them, it was just a game. 09:48 But she could understand 09:50 that for them to identify with a terrorist group 09:53 isn't just like playing super hero 09:55 or cowboys and Indians that you see kids, 09:57 it's much more intense to be that close to the problem 09:59 where ISIS is still in your backyard, 10:01 and kids are identifying. 10:03 And these are kids that weren't even affected 10:05 personally by ISIS, but because that was... 10:09 I mean kids associate with the super hero, 10:10 and so that was the winning ticket 10:12 for a long time in Iraq, and as they were making 10:15 a lot of headway and gains that, 10:16 that's what kids were associating with. 10:18 And it's terrifying to think 10:20 that kids are identifying with it. 10:22 So now the teachers have this huge problem in their hand 10:25 because as kids are moving 10:27 and coming back and reintegrating, 10:30 they have to deal with the after effects of that, 10:32 and those are kids that 10:33 didn't go through the severe trauma, 10:34 that are just indirectly affected. 10:36 So it's across all aspects of society 10:38 that there's a challenge 10:40 and there is no program for reeducation 10:43 outside of what we're doing to help them. 10:45 And tell me your take on this, you know, 10:47 ISIS is a murderous aberration, 10:51 a religion with the politically the others you thrown in. 10:54 But it does resonate 10:56 with a lot of the preexistent views 10:58 in that society, and for better or worse, 11:02 Islam in that part of the world is not known for its tolerance. 11:05 It's very close societal issue. 11:08 And even Saddam may live in infamy 11:12 was sort of damping down 11:14 the religious tensions and so on in his country. 11:17 So how do we get rid of that? 11:19 Because I think Iraq is at heels 11:23 unless this societal intolerance of other faiths 11:27 which derives from their 11:29 longstanding historic application of their religion. 11:33 It won't get any better. 11:35 I think that's sort of the root cause in some ways. 11:38 Well, the root cause of the problem 11:39 is definitely intolerance, extremism, ideologies 11:42 where there's no room 11:44 for the religious other, absolutely. 11:46 But that's existed even under Zoroastrians 2,000 years ago. 11:50 So this is not necessarily something new, 11:52 it's just whoever's in power is the one that 11:55 seems to stamp out anyone 11:56 that is a dissident or is a minority, 11:59 so that's what we see happening in Iraq, 12:01 but the way to correct that is through education 12:08 in the value of religious freedom, 12:10 the freedom of conscience, and teaching them to value 12:12 and to respect the religious other. 12:14 There were times in Iraq 12:16 where people live side by side they got along, 12:18 but the problem in Iraq as in any country in the world 12:21 is that if people have fears of others, 12:24 or intolerant attitudes inside of them, 12:27 they're going to act those out of misperceptions of others. 12:29 And so the challenge really is through education 12:32 to root out those fears and misconceptions 12:34 and biases towards the other. 12:36 I remember one of the stories of Iran... 12:38 I forgot the title of it. 12:40 I should remember, I'm getting it, 12:41 but we had the teaching illustration 12:44 used of growing a garden and the little flower. 12:48 And you know, I thought of something. 12:49 I connect disparate things. 12:51 I can remember during the Vietnam War, 12:52 you know, the hippies putting the flowers 12:55 in the muzzles of the guns. 12:58 Have you ever seen that picture? 12:59 Yeah. Yeah. 13:01 In a certain way that's what we need to do. 13:03 I mean it's not deep complicated arguments 13:06 but go back to just a sort of a childlike simplicity, 13:09 we accept other people, 13:11 you're biased toward nonviolence 13:13 and non-confrontation. 13:15 Yeah, I mean that goes back to 13:16 what Hardwired is doing in Iraq which is, 13:18 we believe that to have peace and stability in the future, 13:20 you need to end this recurrent cycle of violence 13:22 through educating children 13:24 and the value of religious freedom, so, yeah. 13:25 No, you're on to something wonderful with that. 13:27 We'll take a short break here 13:29 and come back with Tina Ramirez's Hardwired 13:32 and how to rewire young people. |
Revised 2018-03-22