Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
bringing you news, views,
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information and analysis
of religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest...
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Thank you for coming
back again is Tina Ramirez,
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president and
founder of Hardwired.
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Thank you, Lincoln. It's
nice to be with you today.
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And that doesn't tell
people much about what you do,
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but that's why you're here.
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I want you to explain
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a little bit
about your organization,
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and maybe what has
been the focal activity
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at least in one
country I know about.
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We featured in the
Liberty quite a bit.
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What is Hardwired?
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So Hardwired is an organization
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that provides education training
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on religious
freedom around the world.
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We believe that we're
all hardwired for freedom.
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And so that's
what we're trying to do
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is to establish
leaders in countries
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where this freedom is at
risk so that they can defend it
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and strengthen the
protection of this freedom.
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You have a big challenge,
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because 70% of the world
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lives under repressive
religious liberty situation.
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But we believe that we can turn
the tide against persecution
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if we will begin to
establish local leadership
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and education for
religious freedom.
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I mean in America,
this is something that
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we take it for
granted every day.
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If you have an issue, you can go
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anywhere down the street
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and they can defend
your religious liberty,
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but the reality is
in most of the world
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that there simply isn't
someone to turn to defend you
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when you're persecuted.
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And so we're trying to establish
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that local
leadership to turn the tide.
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Yeah. Very good.
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And I know in one
country in particular,
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this been in the news
since after 9/11 in Iraq,
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you really been able to make
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quite a difference, haven't you?
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Yeah, it's been fun to
actually write about it
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for Liberty for
several years now.
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I think we've had about
three, four articles at least.
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Yeah, I know.
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Unfortunately, we were
like the bellwether, you know,
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explaining what was gonna happen
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and that happened,
and then we just have
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to report on how sad, you
know, and the ramifications.
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I mean persecution
is one of those things
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that you can see
where when a country
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is going south end.
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The situation in
Iraq was pretty indicative
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that it wasn't gonna get
any better without making
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religious freedom a
priority in the country.
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And so for many years,
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when after the United
States went in to Iraq
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and overthrew Saddam, you
had a very unstable country
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and there was a lot of conflict
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between the different
Sunni and Shia factions,
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and religious
minorities were really...
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Caught in the
middle. Caught in the middle.
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Yeah, a rock
between a hard place, so.
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Well, you're jumping ahead of me
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but I wanted to
ask you the question
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that I really don't
read about or hear about.
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We hear the
problem after the fact,
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what was it like
before the US led
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invasion Gulf War II
bringing down the Saddam,
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what was it like before?
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Did this just suddenly appear,
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all these religious
intolerance and persecution?
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What was the antecedent
to what missing there?
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No, it's a great question,
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that I was just telling
you before the break that we...
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that for the last few
years I actually researched
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and wrote a small book on Iraq
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for an organization
called "Voice of the Martyrs".
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And it just came out so
it talks about the history
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of the church in
Iraq, the Christian church,
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and how they've lived
under persecution the hope
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in the midst of that
darkness that they faced.
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This is not something
new for the people of Iraq,
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I mean whether it's
for the Christian community
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or the Yazidi community or
other religious communities,
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they have been living
under persecution and cycles,
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recurrent cycles of
violence for generations,
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I mean really for
the last 2,000 years
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so this is nothing new.
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It's worth asking the question.
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Now, there's been a lot
going on in Iraq lately,
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but ISIS, or ISIL, or Daesh
depending on you define them.
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They seem to be
disappearing as a military force
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and they took over
Mosul in Turkey, in Iraq,
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what is happening
now with their fade away
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is religious
liberty improving in Iraq?
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Well, that's a big question.
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I don't know that you can
say that it's improving yet.
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However, of course, you know,
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the people that aren't
living under ISIS anymore
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have some
reprieve, but you know,
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from the
immediate terror of ISIS
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which is a huge benefit
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but I don't know
that you would say that,
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just because of that
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they automatically
have greater freedom
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or a sense of
security in their country.
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Maybe they're just shell shocked
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and it's just what next after...
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And I think it's important
for people to understand,
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there were a lot of people,
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millions of people
living under ISIS in Mosul
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and other parts
of Iraq and Syria,
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but in Mosul in particular,
there are 600,000 children
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that were living in Mosul,
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that were indoctrinated to
hate for the last three years,
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when they had
textbooks teaching them
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one bomb plus one
bomb equals two bombs,
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and how to kill
people of different faiths,
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et cetera so.
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And girls were not allowed
to go to school at all, so...
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Well, you're
touching on an issue
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that it's bigger than
just this part of the world,
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and I thought about
this over the years.
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You know, the Soviet
Union used to indoctrinate
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citizens and young
people particularly
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against the evils of
capitalism in Cuba particularly,
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the evils of
imperialism in the US,
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North Korea rather they were
indoctrinating their population
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to hate the US in the
West, how do you undo that?
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When you teach
impressionable young people
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and they grow up that way,
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it's just not undone
at the snap of a finger.
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Those are deep
seeded views, they must be.
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Yeah.
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Well, there's two
issues going on, one,
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I mean you have what ISIS did
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that has severely traumatized
the children of Iraq.
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I mean for many of
the children of Iraq,
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that's all they've ever known
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is recurrent cycles
of religious killings,
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hatred, intolerance, violence,
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think 14 years
that we've been there.
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And so those children
that's all they've seen
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for the last 14 years.
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That means you
have a whole generation
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that's been raised on
that, but in addition to that,
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they're living in a culture
that has frequently denied
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the most basic inherent
right, the freedom of religion.
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And they have seen
intolerance in general
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and across their society
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and attacks on minorities
or people of diverse faiths.
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So this is, I mean,
it happened under Saddam,
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it's been
happening for generations,
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this is nothing new.
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And one of the things
that Hardwired does is that
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to end that recurrent
cycle of violence and hatred,
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the deep seeded
ideologies that fueled this,
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you have to get to
the root cause of it
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which is really that
the beliefs that they have
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and helping to inspire
or reeducate them really,
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reeducate them in a way
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that teaches them to
value religious freedom.
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That's one of things
we're working on with leaders
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but also with children.
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And for children that
have lived through ISIS,
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the methods that we're
using are extremely vital
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because they're the only
methods in Iraq right now
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that are helping
children overcome their trauma
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and replace it with values
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that will help them end that
recurrent cycle of violence.
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Yeah.
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I know you're on to a good thing
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and doing a wonderful job there.
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And as a
counterpoint even to my comment,
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it does seem even though
in these different systems
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and ISIS was doing it too,
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indoctrinating young
people is very toxic.
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And yet in different places,
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I'm trying to think
of the country in Africa
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where there
was, the Army of God,
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you know, these little
kids that they were abducting
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and then teaching
them to be murderers.
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It's amazing in many cases
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how easily once they
come into a positive situation
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that all sort of disappears.
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Not exactly.
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I mean, I think you do
see the effects of that
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carried on into generations
that's why there's recurrent...
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Well, I think it
must be, but you read
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such wonderful
success stories of kids
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who were hacking people to death
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now are attending
a regular school...
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But I think in those countries,
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they've had
really specific programs
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that have helped
reeducated the children.
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You briefed them in practical.
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And we don't have
that right now in Iraq.
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So since ISIS invaded
Iraq, you had 18 mass graves
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where they just buried
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and like killed tens
of thousands of Yazidis
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and buried them, then
you have, on top of that
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6,000 young girls
that were trafficked,
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half of which have
escaped, about half of which.
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And then you had
900 youth children
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that were the
kids of the caliphate,
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they were taught to
become Jihadist soldiers.
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And even those
children that have escaped
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or that have been
kidnapped back out of ISIS,
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when they speak
with their parents,
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share how they believe that
they are members of ISIS still.
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They don't believe
that they're Yazidi anymore.
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They don't even have any respect
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for their former
religion or their families,
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and so this is a whole community
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that's just been decimated.
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On top of that, you
then have the people
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who have escaped living amongst
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the other communities
the Kurds and the Iraqis
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across the
country in the region,
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and there's an inability
of children to make sense
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of what's happening around them,
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so just as an example,
something that we're seeing
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in the schools
where we're working,
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one teacher reported
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how she came across a group
of young boys playing a game,
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and when she went
closer to see what it was,
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she was terrified
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because the boys
were playing a game
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where they were
beheading another student.
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To them, it was just a game.
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But she could understand
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that for them to
identify with a terrorist group
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isn't just like
playing super hero
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or cowboys and
Indians that you see kids,
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it's much more intense to
be that close to the problem
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where ISIS is
still in your backyard,
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and kids are identifying.
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And these are kids
that weren't even affected
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personally by ISIS,
but because that was...
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I mean kids
associate with the super hero,
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and so that was
the winning ticket
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for a long time in
Iraq, and as they were making
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a lot of headway and gains that,
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that's what kids
were associating with.
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And it's terrifying to think
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that kids are
identifying with it.
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So now the teachers have
this huge problem in their hand
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because as kids are moving
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and coming back
and reintegrating,
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they have to deal with
the after effects of that,
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and those are kids that
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didn't go through
the severe trauma,
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that are just
indirectly affected.
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So it's across
all aspects of society
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that there's a challenge
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and there is no
program for reeducation
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outside of what
we're doing to help them.
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And tell me your
take on this, you know,
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ISIS is a murderous aberration,
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a religion with the politically
the others you thrown in.
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But it does resonate
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with a lot of
the preexistent views
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in that society,
and for better or worse,
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Islam in that part of the world
is not known for its tolerance.
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It's very close societal issue.
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And even Saddam
may live in infamy
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was sort of damping down
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the religious tensions
and so on in his country.
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So how do we get rid of that?
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Because I think Iraq is at heels
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unless this societal
intolerance of other faiths
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which derives from their
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longstanding historic
application of their religion.
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It won't get any better.
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I think that's sort of
the root cause in some ways.
00:11:35.09\00:11:38.06
Well, the root
cause of the problem
00:11:38.09\00:11:39.43
is definitely intolerance,
extremism, ideologies
00:11:39.46\00:11:42.90
where there's no room
00:11:42.93\00:11:44.27
for the religious
other, absolutely.
00:11:44.30\00:11:45.97
But that's existed even under
Zoroastrians 2,000 years ago.
00:11:46.00\00:11:50.37
So this is not
necessarily something new,
00:11:50.41\00:11:52.67
it's just whoever's
in power is the one that
00:11:52.71\00:11:55.54
seems to stamp out anyone
00:11:55.58\00:11:56.91
that is a
dissident or is a minority,
00:11:56.95\00:11:59.21
so that's what we
see happening in Iraq,
00:11:59.25\00:12:01.25
but the way to correct
that is through education
00:12:01.28\00:12:08.06
in the value of
religious freedom,
00:12:08.09\00:12:10.03
the freedom of conscience,
and teaching them to value
00:12:10.06\00:12:12.53
and to respect
the religious other.
00:12:12.56\00:12:14.63
There were times in Iraq
00:12:14.66\00:12:16.00
where people live side
by side they got along,
00:12:16.03\00:12:18.27
but the problem in Iraq as
in any country in the world
00:12:18.30\00:12:21.57
is that if people
have fears of others,
00:12:21.60\00:12:24.74
or intolerant
attitudes inside of them,
00:12:24.77\00:12:27.08
they're going to act those
out of misperceptions of others.
00:12:27.11\00:12:29.94
And so the challenge
really is through education
00:12:29.98\00:12:32.05
to root out those
fears and misconceptions
00:12:32.08\00:12:34.88
and biases towards the other.
00:12:34.92\00:12:36.38
I remember one of
the stories of Iran...
00:12:36.42\00:12:38.92
I forgot the title of it.
00:12:38.95\00:12:40.29
I should
remember, I'm getting it,
00:12:40.32\00:12:41.66
but we had the
teaching illustration
00:12:41.69\00:12:44.49
used of growing a
garden and the little flower.
00:12:44.53\00:12:48.30
And you know, I
thought of something.
00:12:48.33\00:12:49.66
I connect disparate things.
00:12:49.70\00:12:51.03
I can remember
during the Vietnam War,
00:12:51.07\00:12:52.77
you know, the
hippies putting the flowers
00:12:52.80\00:12:55.74
in the muzzles of the guns.
00:12:55.77\00:12:58.44
Have you ever seen that picture?
00:12:58.47\00:12:59.81
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:59.84\00:13:01.41
In a certain way
that's what we need to do.
00:13:01.44\00:13:03.58
I mean it's not deep
complicated arguments
00:13:03.61\00:13:06.45
but go back to just a
sort of a childlike simplicity,
00:13:06.48\00:13:09.78
we accept other people,
00:13:09.82\00:13:11.15
you're biased toward nonviolence
00:13:11.19\00:13:13.79
and non-confrontation.
00:13:13.82\00:13:15.52
Yeah, I mean that goes back to
00:13:15.56\00:13:16.89
what Hardwired is
doing in Iraq which is,
00:13:16.93\00:13:18.69
we believe that to have peace
and stability in the future,
00:13:18.73\00:13:20.83
you need to end this
recurrent cycle of violence
00:13:20.86\00:13:22.83
through educating children
00:13:22.86\00:13:24.20
and the value of
religious freedom, so, yeah.
00:13:24.23\00:13:25.70
No, you're on to
something wonderful with that.
00:13:25.73\00:13:27.94
We'll take a short break here
00:13:27.97\00:13:29.30
and come back with
Tina Ramirez's Hardwired
00:13:29.34\00:13:31.97
and how to rewire young people.
00:13:32.01\00:13:34.38