Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000386B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with guest Ed Cook, 00:09 talking about some of your experiences in India 00:12 and what you saw and what's going on there 00:15 on religious liberty and religious activity. 00:18 It's still a great mission field for Christian witness. 00:21 And on religious liberty in general, there's a 00:24 great need to, maybe placate is the wrong word, 00:27 but placate some of the antagonisms that rise up 00:31 from time to time; Hindus, Muslims, Christians, and so on. 00:34 I was going to mention that the Indian constitution, 00:38 as it is currently formulated, it does give the right 00:42 for individuals to change faith and, in essence, 00:46 learn of another faith. 00:47 It doesn't outright guarantee the idea of proselytism 00:52 if it's under coercion. 00:54 It has a very plain language stated there. 00:55 ~ Through the whole part of the world there 00:57 they're very sensitive about coercive conversions. 01:00 Or the way we use to put it, rice Christianity. 01:02 ~ Yes. - Inducements. 01:04 Coercion is probably the wrong word. 01:06 They don't want inducements that entice people away 01:10 from traditional faith. 01:12 Correct. And so having stated that, that's the current 01:15 Indian constitution that does guarantee the idea 01:17 or the concept of religious freedom. 01:19 At the same time, there has been recent discussion 01:23 and debate and dialogue at levels of congress 01:27 dealing with changing that. 01:29 In essence, removing that provision. 01:31 Of course, if that were to happen, then in essence 01:33 it would recognize Hinduism as the national religion. 01:38 So that's something that obviously I'm sure 01:41 people living in India have concern of. 01:43 And even people that are outside of India, 01:45 other countries, recognizing issues with that. 01:48 ~ And the dynamic is probably pushing them toward 01:50 recognizing Hinduism as synonymous with being Indian. 01:55 Because even though Pakistan is a 01:57 separate country, there's issues. 02:00 Not that many years ago, was it in Mumbai where they had 02:04 the Islamic terrorist attacks on some hotels? 02:07 - Remember? ~ Yes. 02:09 So that sort of exposed the rift more than the wars, in my view, 02:14 than the wars between India and Pakistan and Bangladesh. 02:18 ~ But one of the other thing I was going to comment on is, 02:20 well, kind of the underlying concern for those that would be 02:25 desirous of keeping Hindu as the national religion, 02:28 or making it the national religion, 02:30 is that if Christianity or other religious groups 02:33 come into the country or are allowed in 02:36 and do proselytizing efforts to such an extent that they get 02:40 more adherents, that eventually the country becomes 02:43 that particular faith. 02:45 And the reason I bring that up is that, you know, 02:47 when we look at American history there was a point 02:50 when Protestants in America were concerned about the 02:53 influx of Catholic immigrants. 02:55 And kind of there was an anti-Catholic push. 02:58 ~ Well, for the same reason. - Yes. 03:00 And I haven't mentioned it with you, but I nearly always 03:03 when this sort of thing comes up 03:05 mention the Ku Klux Klan in the U.S. 03:07 You know, they should live in infamy. 03:09 But people have forgotten their broader push, 03:13 which was a white Anglo-Saxon Christian America. 03:17 So they were opposed to Catholicism. 03:21 And it was no less, you know, it was just as reprehensible 03:27 what they did against Catholics, as against blacks 03:29 and Jews, and so on. 03:31 They were equal opportunity bigots. 03:33 But it derived from this same sensibility 03:36 to keep it Protestant. 03:37 ~ Correct. 03:38 And you know, much as you and I might be in favor of the 03:41 Protestant Reformation, I don't think anyone 03:44 could endorse that sort of a way of maintaining it. 03:47 You know, that's why I think that not only India, 03:50 but other countries around the world, that if they would 03:53 take time to study a little bit more of American history 03:56 and how we have not only faced some challenges 04:00 of that type, but managed to navigate our way through them 04:03 and still maintaining a peaceful society 04:05 that is diverse with its religious adherence. 04:09 That might be something where countries like India 04:11 and other countries can learn from. 04:14 Yeah, I think it's a combination in the U.S. of good laws, 04:17 good Constitution, and increasing education, 04:22 and openness. 04:24 You know, the worse places in the U.S. are sort of the 04:27 dark corners of the deep south; and things linger there. 04:31 And you know, talking internationally, 04:35 you know, some problems I think internationally with 04:37 religious liberty and religious freedom 04:39 is Saudi Arabia, for example. 04:41 And neither the U.S. nor the United Nations 04:45 can force them to be tolerant. 04:46 But what I think can be quite forced, or at least promoted 04:51 and pushed is openness. 04:53 And in the modern world, if you have interchange of people, 04:56 tourists, and others, and outside workers 05:01 that can freely travel... 05:02 Because in Saudi Arabia they are kept in compounds mostly. 05:05 I think that would partly self-correct. 05:09 It's the closed countries that have the most problems 05:13 with religious persecution and harassment, and so on. 05:17 ~ Yep, one might even say that the closed concept, 05:21 physically, literally, is something that is 05:23 a reflection of a closed mentality. 05:25 ~ Right, and also if you think about it, in view of 05:28 protecting the national faith and so on, 05:31 it's a sense of fear and vulnerability. 05:34 That's one of the reasons why, in the American context, 05:37 the founding fathers, in essence, argued that if a 05:40 religion needs government to support it, like through laws... 05:44 ~ It's not a good religion. - It's not a good religion. 05:46 Because it can't stand on its own. 05:48 They put it the other way around. 05:49 True religion doesn't need the support of government. 05:52 And I think that's been proven. 05:55 But you and I can easily prove that from the Bible. 05:58 Biblically, spiritually that's the way it should be. 06:00 Dealing with hearts not coercion. 06:03 ~ But you know, there's another element that is related 06:05 to the aspect of religious freedom 06:08 in, you know, countries around the world. 06:10 We have plenty of historical examples that whenever 06:13 there is a dominant religion that gains civil authority or 06:17 political power and begins to persecute or ostracize 06:22 those that are not of that dominant religion, 06:25 then there is some kind of an economic impact 06:29 in that society. 06:30 Like, you know, when the Protestants were there in France 06:33 and they were forced to flee, the Huguenots, 06:35 there were many of them that were artisans. 06:38 And many studied have been done showing their economy went down. 06:42 France suffered economically for doing that. 06:48 I'm trying to resist belaboring the persecution 06:52 and religious problems in many Muslim countries. 06:54 That's an article or program all to itself. 06:59 But something that we need to remark on here, 07:01 because we read in the headlines over and over again, 07:03 is in Myanmar, again a closed country still somewhat, 07:07 but opening up a little bit, very much a closed country 07:11 for a long time. 07:12 And it's becoming obvious to the outside world 07:15 that there's a huge problem in Myanmar 07:18 with the Rohingya. 07:20 You've been reading about that? You're aware of that? 07:22 ~ A little bit, yes. Buddhist. 07:24 They're a Muslim population who are ethnically different 07:27 from most of the, what we use to call Burmese, in Myanmar, 07:32 because they come from Bangladesh. 07:34 But when they came, no one knows. 07:36 Certainly not much within living memory. 07:40 A generation or two ago they crossed the border. 07:42 They count themselves as Myanmarese. 07:47 I don't know if there's such a word. 07:50 But the military government has acted on the fears of 07:53 the Buddhist majority and they have been persecuting them 07:57 in a very bloody manner. 07:58 Sometimes liquidating whole villages, killing a few and 08:02 forcing the rest of them across the border. 08:05 And they're the ultimate dispossessed people. 08:08 They're not given citizenship rights, 08:10 they're not provided education typically, 08:12 no political involvement. 08:14 Basically no civil liberties. 08:16 It's a very egregious situation that correctly is troubling 08:20 the whole world at the moment, and particularly so since 08:24 the woman who now is basically the head of state, 08:27 Aung San Suu Kyi, very progressive, we thought, 08:31 British educated woman, has seemed to be determined 08:36 to turn a blind eye to this. 08:38 And even the little statements she's made have been very 08:42 forgiving of what the military is doing, and saying, 08:44 "Well, they asked for it. They're reacting. 08:47 We're just punishing the dissidents." 08:49 Well you know, what was surprising to me is that 08:51 something like that would occur in a society 08:54 that was predominantly Buddhist. 08:57 Because, I mean, historically you don't typically... 09:00 ~ It's not been violent. It's been very passive. 09:03 Indifferent religion to others. 09:04 It's a meditative religion. 09:06 But yes, in a number of places Buddhism has become 09:09 aggressive and even violent at times. 09:12 ~ Which is unfortunate, you know, due to their 09:14 past history of not being that way. 09:16 I know. So something's going on. 09:18 And I believe it's a sign of the end of time. 09:21 The nations, what is it, from the Messiah, 09:23 as we film this at the end of the year, the nations are angry. 09:26 "Why do the nations rage so angrily," you know, 09:29 "violently together," isn't it? 09:31 There's an element of that. 09:33 So we need to pray as Christians and people 09:36 that are concerned about our fellow human beings, 09:38 that the Rohingya in Myanmar will be relieved 09:42 and treated admirably. 09:43 In India I know you wish well there. 09:46 And Christians throughout the Middle East, just as a 09:48 little passing comment, a bad situation. 09:51 ~ Certainly. - What other area? 09:53 Do you see another flash point or another area 09:55 in the world that we should be aware of 09:59 with religious liberty challenges? 10:02 Yeah, I would kind of look at some of the areas that... 10:05 One would look at in the Middle East, predominantly. 10:09 Those are areas where Christians in the minority 10:12 are facing persecution, laws that are against them 10:15 that make it difficult for them to live there faith 10:17 and share their faith. 10:19 Even in portions of North Africa are facing similar situations. 10:23 So we certainly need to pray for all of those communities. 10:29 Those that say that the world is increasingly secular 10:33 and that religion is fading away really are ignoring 10:36 a global situation where religion is dominant, 10:40 and aggressive, and sometimes even violent 10:43 in its conflicts between one religion and the other. 10:46 India is a massive country with many religious viewpoints, 10:52 all at close quarters. 10:54 Years ago I remember being impressed by reading 10:57 Stanley Jones' seminal book, The Christ of the India Road, 11:01 and having him report on a conversation with a Brahman. 11:05 He said, "I don't like the Christ of the European culture 11:10 and all of the doctrines that you present, and so on." 11:13 And Stanley Jones says, "Well what about the 11:15 Christ of the Indian road?" 11:17 And the way he described Him, He was someone that 11:20 they could relate to. 11:21 I know that in India they can relate to Christ. 11:24 I know that in the Middle East where Christ came from, 11:27 they can relate to Him. 11:29 We need religion. 11:31 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-04-09