Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Ed Cook,
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talking about some of
your experiences in India
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and what you saw and
what's going on there
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on religious liberty
and religious activity.
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It's still a great mission
field for Christian witness.
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And on religious
liberty in general, there's a
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great need to, maybe
placate is the wrong word,
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but placate some of the
antagonisms that rise up
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from time to time; Hindus,
Muslims, Christians, and so on.
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I was going to mention
that the Indian constitution,
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as it is currently formulated,
it does give the right
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for individuals to
change faith and, in essence,
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learn of another faith.
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It doesn't outright guarantee
the idea of proselytism
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if it's under coercion.
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It has a very plain
language stated there.
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~ Through the whole
part of the world there
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they're very sensitive
about coercive conversions.
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Or the way we use to
put it, rice Christianity.
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~ Yes. - Inducements.
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Coercion is
probably the wrong word.
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They don't want inducements
that entice people away
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from traditional faith.
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Correct. And so having
stated that, that's the current
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Indian constitution
that does guarantee the idea
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or the concept of
religious freedom.
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At the same time, there
has been recent discussion
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and debate and
dialogue at levels of congress
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dealing with changing that.
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In essence,
removing that provision.
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Of course, if that were
to happen, then in essence
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it would recognize Hinduism
as the national religion.
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So that's something
that obviously I'm sure
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people living in
India have concern of.
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And even people that
are outside of India,
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other countries,
recognizing issues with that.
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~ And the dynamic is
probably pushing them toward
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recognizing Hinduism as
synonymous with being Indian.
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Because even
though Pakistan is a
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separate
country, there's issues.
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Not that many years ago,
was it in Mumbai where they had
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the Islamic terrorist
attacks on some hotels?
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- Remember? ~ Yes.
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So that sort of exposed the rift
more than the wars, in my view,
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than the wars between India
and Pakistan and Bangladesh.
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~ But one of the other thing
I was going to comment on is,
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well, kind of the underlying
concern for those that would be
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desirous of keeping
Hindu as the national religion,
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or making it the
national religion,
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is that if Christianity
or other religious groups
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come into the
country or are allowed in
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and do proselytizing efforts
to such an extent that they get
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more adherents, that
eventually the country becomes
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that particular faith.
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And the reason I bring
that up is that, you know,
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when we look at American
history there was a point
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when Protestants in
America were concerned about the
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influx of Catholic immigrants.
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And kind of there was
an anti-Catholic push.
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~ Well, for the
same reason. - Yes.
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And I haven't mentioned it
with you, but I nearly always
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when this sort of thing comes up
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mention the Ku
Klux Klan in the U.S.
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You know, they
should live in infamy.
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But people have
forgotten their broader push,
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which was a white
Anglo-Saxon Christian America.
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So they were
opposed to Catholicism.
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And it was no less, you know,
it was just as reprehensible
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what they did against
Catholics, as against blacks
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and Jews, and so on.
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They were equal
opportunity bigots.
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But it derived from
this same sensibility
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to keep it Protestant.
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~ Correct.
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And you know, much as you
and I might be in favor of the
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Protestant Reformation,
I don't think anyone
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could endorse that sort
of a way of maintaining it.
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You know, that's why I
think that not only India,
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but other countries around
the world, that if they would
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take time to study a little
bit more of American history
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and how we have not
only faced some challenges
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of that type, but managed to
navigate our way through them
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and still
maintaining a peaceful society
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that is diverse with
its religious adherence.
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That might be something
where countries like India
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and other
countries can learn from.
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Yeah, I think it's a combination
in the U.S. of good laws,
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good Constitution,
and increasing education,
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and openness.
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You know, the worse places
in the U.S. are sort of the
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dark corners of the deep
south; and things linger there.
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And you know,
talking internationally,
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you know, some problems I
think internationally with
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religious liberty
and religious freedom
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is Saudi Arabia, for example.
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And neither the U.S.
nor the United Nations
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can force them to be tolerant.
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But what I think can be quite
forced, or at least promoted
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and pushed is openness.
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And in the modern world, if
you have interchange of people,
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tourists, and
others, and outside workers
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that can freely travel...
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Because in Saudi Arabia they
are kept in compounds mostly.
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I think that would
partly self-correct.
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It's the closed countries
that have the most problems
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with religious persecution
and harassment, and so on.
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~ Yep, one might even
say that the closed concept,
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physically,
literally, is something that is
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a reflection of
a closed mentality.
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~ Right, and also if you
think about it, in view of
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protecting the
national faith and so on,
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it's a sense of
fear and vulnerability.
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That's one of the reasons
why, in the American context,
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the founding fathers, in
essence, argued that if a
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religion needs government to
support it, like through laws...
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~ It's not a good religion.
- It's not a good religion.
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Because it can't
stand on its own.
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They put it the
other way around.
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True religion doesn't
need the support of government.
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And I think that's been proven.
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But you and I can easily
prove that from the Bible.
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Biblically, spiritually
that's the way it should be.
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Dealing with
hearts not coercion.
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~ But you know, there's
another element that is related
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to the aspect of
religious freedom
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in, you know,
countries around the world.
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We have plenty of historical
examples that whenever
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there is a dominant religion
that gains civil authority or
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political power and
begins to persecute or ostracize
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those that are not of
that dominant religion,
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then there is some
kind of an economic impact
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in that society.
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Like, you know, when the
Protestants were there in France
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and they were forced
to flee, the Huguenots,
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there were many of
them that were artisans.
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And many studied have been done
showing their economy went down.
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France suffered
economically for doing that.
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I'm trying to resist
belaboring the persecution
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and religious problems
in many Muslim countries.
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That's an article or
program all to itself.
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But something that we
need to remark on here,
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because we read in the
headlines over and over again,
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is in Myanmar, again a
closed country still somewhat,
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but opening up a little
bit, very much a closed country
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for a long time.
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And it's becoming
obvious to the outside world
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that there's a
huge problem in Myanmar
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with the Rohingya.
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You've been reading about
that? You're aware of that?
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~ A little bit, yes. Buddhist.
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They're a Muslim population
who are ethnically different
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from most of the, what we
use to call Burmese, in Myanmar,
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because they
come from Bangladesh.
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But when they
came, no one knows.
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Certainly not much
within living memory.
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A generation or two ago
they crossed the border.
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They count
themselves as Myanmarese.
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I don't know if
there's such a word.
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But the military government
has acted on the fears of
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the Buddhist majority and
they have been persecuting them
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in a very bloody manner.
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Sometimes liquidating whole
villages, killing a few and
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forcing the rest of
them across the border.
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And they're the
ultimate dispossessed people.
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They're not given
citizenship rights,
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they're not
provided education typically,
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no political involvement.
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Basically no civil liberties.
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It's a very egregious situation
that correctly is troubling
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the whole world at the moment,
and particularly so since
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the woman who now is
basically the head of state,
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Aung San Suu Kyi, very
progressive, we thought,
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British educated woman,
has seemed to be determined
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to turn a blind eye to this.
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And even the little statements
she's made have been very
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forgiving of what the
military is doing, and saying,
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"Well, they asked
for it. They're reacting.
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We're just
punishing the dissidents."
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Well you know, what was
surprising to me is that
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something like that
would occur in a society
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that was predominantly Buddhist.
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Because, I mean, historically
you don't typically...
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~ It's not been
violent. It's been very passive.
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Indifferent religion to others.
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It's a meditative religion.
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But yes, in a number of
places Buddhism has become
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aggressive and
even violent at times.
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~ Which is unfortunate,
you know, due to their
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past history of
not being that way.
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I know. So something's going on.
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And I believe it's a
sign of the end of time.
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The nations, what is
it, from the Messiah,
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as we film this at the end of
the year, the nations are angry.
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"Why do the nations
rage so angrily," you know,
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"violently together," isn't it?
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There's an element of that.
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So we need to pray
as Christians and people
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that are concerned
about our fellow human beings,
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that the Rohingya in
Myanmar will be relieved
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and treated admirably.
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In India I know
you wish well there.
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And Christians throughout
the Middle East, just as a
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little passing
comment, a bad situation.
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~ Certainly. - What other area?
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Do you see another
flash point or another area
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in the world that
we should be aware of
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with religious
liberty challenges?
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Yeah, I would kind of look
at some of the areas that...
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One would look at in the
Middle East, predominantly.
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Those are areas where
Christians in the minority
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are facing persecution,
laws that are against them
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that make it difficult
for them to live there faith
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and share their faith.
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Even in portions of North Africa
are facing similar situations.
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So we certainly need to pray
for all of those communities.
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Those that say that the
world is increasingly secular
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and that religion is
fading away really are ignoring
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a global situation
where religion is dominant,
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and aggressive, and
sometimes even violent
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in its conflicts between
one religion and the other.
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India is a massive country
with many religious viewpoints,
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all at close quarters.
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Years ago I remember
being impressed by reading
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Stanley Jones' seminal book,
The Christ of the India Road,
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and having him report on a
conversation with a Brahman.
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He said, "I don't like the
Christ of the European culture
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and all of the doctrines
that you present, and so on."
00:11:10.37\00:11:12.83
And Stanley Jones
says, "Well what about the
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Christ of the Indian road?"
00:11:15.20\00:11:17.17
And the way he described
Him, He was someone that
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they could relate to.
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I know that in India
they can relate to Christ.
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I know that in the Middle
East where Christ came from,
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they can relate to Him.
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We need religion.
00:11:29.18\00:11:30.85
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:31.65\00:11:35.46