Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000386A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:27 This is the program bringing you news, views, discussion 00:31 and insights into religious liberty events 00:34 in the U.S. and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest is Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook. 00:43 As I've introduced you before, author, pastor, public speaker, 00:49 religious liberty activist. 00:51 And your doctorate is in church-state studies. 00:53 So very qualified. 00:58 I understand that not too long ago you went to India. 01:01 ~ Yes. - And you made some discoveries. 01:04 Tell me about India and religious liberty. 01:07 Well the country, I mean, as far as the time I spent there, 01:10 I landed in Mumbai. 01:12 ~ By the way, many people in India watch this program. 01:15 At our recent General Conference session, 01:18 was it two years ago now, I was a couple of times 01:22 waiting in line and people from India called out. 01:25 And one of the leaders said, "Oh, people 01:26 watch it a lot in India." 01:28 So we've got to be careful what we say. 01:30 ~ Sure. 01:32 Everything I've got to say, I think, 01:33 is going to be on a positive note. 01:35 ~ Now there's some negative on religious liberty. 01:36 They're wonderful people though. 01:37 Yes. And I enjoyed, from kind of the beginning point, 01:41 enjoyed my travel throughout the country 01:43 and had a chance to visit about five of their main cities, 01:46 and even had time to go out and see the Taj Mahal and 01:49 historical sites that way. 01:51 ~ I don't know if it's a crime, maybe it is, but at one stage 01:54 I had a little piece about half an inch square 01:56 of the Taj Mahal. 01:58 I went there as a teenager and I pried it out of the wall. 02:01 Probably lucky I got out of the country. 02:03 ~ Yeah, because that is one of their historical monuments. 02:06 - Beautiful monument. ~ Yes it is. 02:08 It's one of the wonders of the world really. 02:10 ~ Yes, Correct. Yep. 02:12 So my time in the country visiting everything 02:14 was fabulous, I enjoyed it very much. 02:16 And the people were very cordial. 02:19 Always willing to help out, and service oriented. 02:22 The couple of things though that I noticed as I was 02:24 traveling in the country, and this is not just from a 02:27 particular denominational perspective... 02:30 It's just interacting with people in the 02:32 particular cities I visited. 02:34 Some that happened to be Hindu, 02:35 some that were Seventh-day Adventist, 02:37 some that were Christian but non Seventh-day Adventist... 02:39 ~ Christians of course are very small minority in India. 02:42 Only about two percent of total Indian population. 02:45 The Indian population is a little over one billion, 02:48 is their current statistics. 02:50 And of course, a very, I would say pluralistic 02:55 in the sense of diverse, because they've got a 02:57 variety of dialects that they speak, 02:59 as well as cultural perspectives; 03:02 south compared to north. 03:05 ~ Hinduism, of course, has so many gods 03:07 that they're not really too particular. 03:10 Except if it's non-Hindu. 03:13 Well it never use to be. 03:15 But Hinduism and Indian nationalism have sort of 03:21 joined at the hip in recent years. 03:23 ~ That's correct. 03:24 And that's where that Hindu nationalist movement 03:27 is something that has become a more prevalent 03:30 part of politics, national politics, in India. 03:34 And as I kind of learned from dialoging with citizens there, 03:38 is that particular states like in the central and northern part 03:42 of India in the past tended to be the central democratic party. 03:48 But more of the Hindu nationalist movement, 03:51 they've done a lot of ground work and laid a 03:54 good foundation where they've gotten some of those states 03:56 to covert over to Hindu nationalist parties. 03:59 And of course, at the state level, when you get enough 04:02 states combined together, that makes an impact 04:05 on the national level. 04:06 And something I'm sure you noticed, and I saw it 04:10 from visiting there, but you don't get it internationally, 04:13 you know, India, one country, and you think, one people. 04:17 But it's no more one people than Latin America, South America. 04:20 A big continent, there's many different ethnic groups. 04:23 And India is the same. 04:25 And it's an amazing miracle, I think, of the modern world 04:29 that a coherent, cohesive, and enduring 04:32 state could be established. 04:34 And especially the partition was violent, 04:38 because Pakistan left and formed an Islamic state. 04:43 Or a Muslim state. 04:45 But still, India is an amazingly successful country, 04:48 even though on a certain level it's dysfunctional. 04:51 ~ Yes, true. 04:52 Because it's so big and unwieldy. 04:55 And some little remainders of the English, British Raj. 05:01 Some of the same steam trains are there. 05:03 But India is moving ahead rapidly and far more advanced 05:06 in some areas than people imagine. 05:08 They've got their own Silicon Valley and their own film 05:11 industry that's, I think, bigger than Hollywood in reality. 05:15 ~ In fact, commenting on that. 05:17 I was just going to note that the individuals that have 05:20 taken time just looking at trends, they project that India 05:24 is actually going to, because of its technology base, 05:27 is actually going to supersede in certain areas of technology 05:31 even that of the United States. 05:33 That's just where, you know, they're at their prime 05:37 for development and becoming a more developed country. 05:40 The problem with India that I see, they don't have 05:45 a surplus of natural resources other than people. 05:48 And they're very energetic people. 05:49 But yes, India, and China too, these are hugely emerging 05:56 economies that I think in the West 05:58 we're not always aware of them. 06:00 ~ Yes, that is true. 06:01 And so you probably got a little window into that. 06:03 But as far as missionary activity, 06:06 and of course the larger religious liberty thing, 06:10 I'm sure you picked up the tensions. 06:13 ~ Oh yes. 06:14 And a lot of it is related to cast, isn't it, the cast system. 06:16 Yeah, because in traditional Hindu religious beliefs 06:19 you've got your cast system. 06:21 And of course, Christianity does not support or teach 06:24 the idea of cast and different levels of 06:27 importance or value to individuals. 06:29 ~ Which is tied up to reincarnation and the levels. 06:34 You come back, and you know, you might be the lower cast now, 06:38 but maybe you get a later chance you can elevate yourself. 06:41 But with education in India, and people have seen 06:46 what it's like in other countries, the lower cast 06:48 have become aware that they are just sort of fixed in place 06:52 in their country, there's not much mobility. 06:55 ~ Another thing, though, that has influenced 06:57 the changing viewpoint within Indian culture, 07:02 especially in the south, is due to the influence of democracy. 07:05 You know, like you mentioned, people can easily access 07:08 the internet, they see how democracy works 07:11 in other countries like America and western countries. 07:14 And they start recognizing that there is an 07:16 element of human rights. 07:17 And so individuals, even though they're at the lower cast level, 07:20 they may say, "Well, you know, society may have placed me here, 07:24 but on my own initiative I'll seek some way to 07:27 come out of that cast level and recognize that I'm an 07:30 individual just as others that might be 07:32 in a higher cast level." 07:33 And that does produce some tensions with the 07:36 traditional Hindu viewpoint of the ordering of society 07:40 and individuals that want more free flowing democracy. 07:43 Now the Indian government, from all that I can see, 07:46 is quite a secular egalitarian system. 07:50 It's not insisting on the cast system. 07:54 But the cast system in society is pretty inflexible. 07:58 But by the same token, I know that some untouchables 08:01 become millionaires. 08:03 They're not all desperately poor. 08:05 But they're still held in place by societies expectations. 08:09 And did you see signs of people becoming Christian 08:14 partly to escape the cast system? 08:17 You know, as far as finding out what the motives might have been 08:20 behind individuals making that choice, 08:23 I never really had a chance to dialogue with them. 08:24 I used the word, "partly," and I should have emphasized... 08:26 I mean, you hope that it is always, with any religious 08:29 conversion or change, that it's a deeply felt 08:33 life changing experience. 08:36 But it's not a negative at all, when Christians witness 08:40 to the lower cast, that they see in accepting Christ 08:43 they're also escaping, you know, the inhibitions 08:49 their society have placed on them. 08:50 I think that, you know, maybe one of the most attractive 08:53 things of Christianity in India is just the idea that 08:57 if an individual accepts Christ and becomes part of that 09:00 community, they're accepted equally 09:03 among the body of believers. 09:05 So you know, somebody that maybe in regular Indian society 09:10 has felt ostracized or prohibited of certain things, 09:13 they come into a community and they're accepted. 09:15 And so naturally that's an attractive element. 09:18 And I think that's one of the reasons why your 09:20 traditional Hindu religion and those that are adherents of it, 09:23 devout adherents, devout Hindus, 09:27 they take resentment towards that. 09:28 Because they can't offer that within their religion. 09:31 ~ And did you see anything... 09:32 I think I've privately told you 09:34 that India had a great effect on me. 09:36 I was only a teenager when I first went there. 09:40 ~ Didn't you tell me your dad also served there for some time? 09:43 - Visited there many times. - He visited there, yes. 09:45 He knew Mrs. Gandhi very well. 09:46 He visited with her many, many times. 09:48 And Desai. 09:50 Even had him come visit our our headquarters office 09:53 in Washington, D.C. 09:56 I'm trying to think of the state that he spent a lot of time in. 09:58 But oh no, India was very close to my father's heart. 10:03 But when I went to India the first time, dad took us there, 10:06 it was shocking, culturally. 10:08 I mean, so many people, and just... 10:11 It makes you re-examine, at least made me look closely at, 10:14 "What's a human being, even?" 10:17 The anonymity. 10:18 It reminds me of, it was like a movie I saw years ago, 10:22 a kids movie, Ants. 10:24 And the Woody Allen ant character is on a couch 10:29 being psychoanalyzed, and in the background you see the 10:32 ants by the tens of thousands doing this, that, and the other. 10:35 And he says, "And I feel so insignificant, doctor." 10:38 He says, "You know, I'm a middle child of 10:40 ten thousand," or whatever. 10:42 And at the end the psychiatrist says, 10:44 "We've made great progress today." 10:45 He says, "You are insignificant." 10:48 But of course, under Christ, the Creator God, 10:52 we all have value. 10:53 But there's so many people that it can question that. 10:56 Because in the West we have a sense of individual autonomy. 11:00 That's harder to maintain in a country like India. 11:03 And of course, Asia in general is a challenge to that. 11:07 But it affected me too because I saw our church, 11:11 which was very small relative to the overall population, 11:14 but fairly active, but it was suffering because 11:18 there were not enough church workers, pastors, 11:20 and administrators. 11:22 And what was happening is that many of them that converted 11:25 to Adventism, Christianity, they saw possibilities 11:29 in Loma Linda, California, universities in the U.S., 11:32 and came here and never went back. 11:35 And I determined that I would go back and help Australia, 11:38 that I owed it to my country. 11:40 And I did. Went back for nine years. 11:44 Which I think is consistent with Paul on his missionary journeys, 11:47 and Silas and Timothy, and all of that. 11:50 We have to have a sense of, it's fine to go to the pagan, 11:53 go to the far lands, but you've got to 11:57 take care of your own culture first. 11:59 ~ Sure. Yep. 12:01 Did you see any signs of religious tensions 12:04 when you were there? 12:05 You know, as far as one of the particular cities 12:08 that I did visit, they had roughly 40% of the population 12:13 that were Muslim, and then the other roughly 45 to 50% 12:18 that were Hindu, and then just a small minority 12:22 portion that were Christian. 12:24 But talking to some of the people that lived there, 12:26 they did tell me that it's not so much that they had any 12:30 resent towards the Muslims for being Muslims, 12:33 it's just that the Muslims with their prayer practice 12:36 five times a day, there were times that in the downtown 12:39 part of that city, there all the streets would be blocked off 12:41 because the people overflowed the Mosque out into the street, 12:45 and traffic came to a standstill. 12:47 And so it just made it a little more difficult 12:49 with day to day living arrangements, 12:51 especially with commute times and stuff. 12:54 I mean, all around the world, even in some of the worst 12:59 offending Muslim countries, the ruling class and the 13:04 more educated people usually are able to live and let live 13:08 and have a certain accommodation. 13:09 But you get down to a basic village level where people 13:12 are not well educated, hardscrabble living, 13:15 and only a few dollars a year, or month sometimes, 13:18 and tensions can get out of hand much more easily. 13:21 - And India of course... ~ And commenting on that... 13:23 Actually there was, commenting on that very point, 13:26 in more of the kind of, you might say, rural village areas 13:29 where, as you pointed out, sometimes people don't have 13:32 the opportunity to be as educated about other 13:35 differing viewpoints and other, you know, practices, 13:38 religious practices and so forth, and accepting of others. 13:41 In some of those places there have been instances 13:44 were ministers, especially Pentecostal pastors, 13:48 have gone in, and holding revival services 13:50 and claiming to do miracles and so forth, 13:52 where the villagers have become incited, 13:55 devout Hindus incited against them 13:58 and violence has broken out where some of them 14:01 have lost their lives, Christians lost their lives. 14:03 It's regrettable, and it's just like in "Acts of the Apostles." 14:07 There's a case where, you know, the charge was made, 14:10 remember about the possessed girl, you know, 14:12 "These men are teaching," whatever. 14:13 There's a riot. 14:16 ~ And the people were afraid that their temple 14:18 to the goddess Diana was going to be shut down. 14:19 ~ Threatening their livelihood. - Yeah. 14:21 We'll be back after a short break. 14:22 Please stay with us. 14:23 Talking at the moment about India, 14:25 but we may take it further afield. 14:27 We'll be back. |
Revised 2018-04-09