Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000385B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break we were really into some... 00:12 ...some heavy talking. 00:14 And I think I cut you off a bit. 00:16 No, actually you did a very concise summary. 00:21 Because I posed to you the question dealing with 00:24 historical context of political sermons 00:26 during the American Revolution as opposed to the idea 00:30 nowadays of churches that want to make public 00:33 political expressions in the pulpit. 00:35 And there are some historical distinct differences, obviously. 00:39 And at the same time it's something 00:40 that is undergoing debate. 00:42 ~ Well religion, the further back in history you go 00:45 the more powerful the role of religion was 00:48 in determining public events. 00:50 But even in our day. 00:51 Like we have an article in an upcoming issue of 00:55 Liberty Magazine, and the illustration is powerful. 01:00 It's a painting of Cardinal Spellman with a B-52 01:04 in his hands, as I remember. 01:05 And it tells the story in the Vietnam War 01:08 where he was dedicating the bombers as they were 01:10 going off to fight the Vietnam war. 01:12 And you could make a pretty good case that the war 01:15 might not have gone on as long if these major religious 01:21 figures like Spellman hadn't thrown their weight behind it. 01:27 Before the War of Independence 01:29 there was the civil war in England, 01:32 which was precipitated, well, by two things. 01:37 Nominally, the king wanted money to wage a foreign war. 01:41 But the aggravation at the time was that 01:46 the Archbishop of Canterbury, who was accused of being 01:49 a high churchman and favoring Rome anyway, 01:51 he brought in the new Book of Common Prayer. 01:53 And the agitation was so great that it fired up 01:56 the Protestants, the Puritans particularly, 02:00 to go on the warpath. 02:02 And they saw the king as representing Catholic interests. 02:04 It's a religious war. 02:07 So how is that different from today? 02:11 You've got secularists, you've got signs of immorality 02:15 that bother Christians, and they want to recapture. 02:17 So there's a religious dynamic. 02:19 And you mentioned the role of the ministers 02:22 in the War of Independence. 02:23 Of course, religion was there front and center. 02:26 Some of it was unavoidable, because religion 02:29 meant so much for them. 02:30 But when the Black Robe Regiment of the revolutionary pastors 02:37 stood out and argued for separation from England, 02:40 they became political operatives. 02:42 And when the Church of England preachers urged people 02:45 to remain loyal to the crown, 02:47 they were government exhilarants. 02:48 There's just no getting around that. 02:51 So based on that, one would kind of ask the question, right, 02:56 why in the current context religious groups that are 03:00 seeking political expression in the pulpit, 03:04 what might be their motivation for that? 03:07 I mean, based on the historical 03:08 information you've outlined, right? 03:10 ~ Let me ask you a question again. 03:12 What should be their motivation? 03:16 Not what might it be. 03:17 Shouldn't the motivation of a pastor standing before 03:21 a congregation be to spread spirituality and a knowledge of 03:27 the divine, and lead you to godliness? 03:30 ~Yes, and you know, I think that's the very essence 03:32 of Christianity. 03:34 Do you think that's what they want 03:36 with the repudiation of the Johnson Amendment? 03:39 Well it would seem to. 03:41 I mean, kind of the obvious, right, is that 03:43 if they see the Johnson Amendment as a prohibition 03:46 of their political expression and political aspirations, 03:51 then the removal of it is that, you know, their intention is... 03:55 ~ Well, in a way you didn't answer my question. 03:57 You turned it instantly to politics. 03:59 But my point is, the legitimate role of a pastor 04:02 is, yes, to relate modern concerns in a spiritual context. 04:09 So you can't easily preach a sermon that's dismissive of 04:14 the prevailing immorality or the injustice 04:17 that the government might be perpetrating. 04:18 That can bear on it, but your spreading 04:21 spiritual truth, and biblical reference points, 04:25 and godliness, and sanctification, 04:27 and all those things, right? 04:29 So if that pastor with that role wants political power, 04:34 is it to enlarge that sort of message? 04:37 Or is it just to have power to either force people to 04:41 think as he thinks or to listen to him against their will? 04:45 Because I'm particularly convinced that a litmus test 04:50 of religious liberty is, is there coercion involved? 04:53 ~ Well that certainly is true. 04:54 I mean, that's the end of the whole game. 04:57 And you might not think it's coercion, 04:59 but a secular person might think it's there 05:01 and now on their dollar where they contribute to the 05:05 public goods through taxes or whatever. 05:07 They're now going to be forced to either listen to the pastor 05:12 or even be co-opted to some of his political adventures 05:15 through his direct activity as political leader. 05:20 I mean, that's an abusive use of religion, in my view. 05:24 But it fits into a grand ole model of behavior 05:27 going back into the Middle Ages. 05:29 It's regressive. 05:30 I just do not see any good need for this. 05:35 There might be a little arguable need 05:38 if we were under persecution. 05:40 Then you might want to get into the king's palace 05:42 and whisper in his ear, as a figurative thing 05:45 to political power, to ease the persecution on the faithful. 05:48 But that's not the case. 05:50 We're wanting the right to mandate political actions, 05:55 to order the civil sphere. 05:57 It's crossing the line of separation of church and state 06:00 in an egregious way. 06:02 Or intention to do it. 06:03 I was going to mention that it's interesting, 06:07 as you point that out, that one of the sixteen documents 06:10 that was pronounced by the Catholic church at Vatican II 06:13 was addressing the role of the church in society. 06:17 And in essence, what their document argues 06:21 is that Catholics have, not only the obligation 06:25 before God, but also the church encouraging them 06:28 to, as faithful citizens, to evangelize and Christianize 06:34 society, in essence. 06:35 ~ Well I think they do. I think that's a good statement. 06:38 ~ But from the perspective... 06:40 In essence, it's more of a shift from the church saying, 06:43 we're going to take a definitive dominant political 06:46 role as an institution, and instead we're going to 06:49 ask now the members to go out and perform that role. 06:53 So you know, in that regard... 06:55 ~ The Bible calls that, you're salt. 06:58 You're an agent for change in society. 07:02 That's what all churches should be all about. 07:05 It's indeed what all political action groups are all about. 07:08 They want to start cell movements and change society. 07:12 I mean, it's only the dictatorship mindset 07:16 that wants to sit on the throne, and you know, 07:18 bam, zap, zap, "You do this." 07:21 I think it's a very natural approach. 07:24 Let me ask you this, kind of at the core of the whole issue, 07:28 it seems to be, is that if religious groups of 07:31 whatever persuasion are motivated by the right, 07:36 how would I call it, the positive motivation 07:39 to share their faith, wouldn't that seem to be 07:44 sufficient to gain more adherence and make change 07:48 in society rather than trying to legislate it? 07:51 - Is that right? ~ I can agree, absolutely. 07:53 - Okay, yeah. ~ That's how I would see it. 07:54 That's the natural way. 07:56 And you know, all of this hand-wringing about 07:59 immorality and corrupt leadership, 08:01 you don't solve it by legislation. 08:03 You solve it by proving the raw material of public service. 08:08 And that's what Christian witness and 08:11 changing lives is all about. 08:14 You would surely hope and expect the best, 08:17 sort of, morality and highest ideals to percolate up 08:21 into the public office. 08:23 But you don't do it by legislative power. 08:26 I mean, I think if nothing else, this current round of 08:31 firings and retirements because of one immoral act or another 08:36 shows that there's too many people placed in high office 08:39 that have no good sense of morality. 08:41 And you're not really solving it by just picking them off 08:45 like in a shooting gallery, because it surely is saying 08:47 that there's a corruption that's endemic. 08:50 How do you solve that? 08:52 You solve it by re-education. 08:54 To take a communist term. 08:56 You start dealing from the ground up, 08:59 changing people's attitudes, and they will finally 09:02 replace the corrupt leadership. 09:05 I agree with that statement. 09:06 Certainly to bring about change in society 09:09 one has to start at the ground level. 09:11 And you know, the Bible even talks about that, 09:14 where Paul had admonished Timothy and believers that read 09:18 Scripture to take the time and study Scriptures. 09:21 And at the end of time there would be corruption 09:23 of morals and so forth. 09:25 And you know, there's a certain irony that a few years ago 09:28 we discovered that Billy Graham, who's sort of the 09:31 patron saint of evangelicals, in his efforts to gain influence 09:35 and political power, I don't know if you remember, 09:37 under freedom of information we hear these tapes, 09:40 were in the back room with these political leaders. 09:42 He's maligning Jews and speaking like the ultimate war hawk. 09:47 This was unseemly for a minister. 09:49 And I think, not just the leadership, but the 09:54 Christians will be corrupting their own agenda 09:57 if they seek political power. 10:00 Yeah, certainly society does show us in history in particular 10:04 that any time that religion becomes so closely intertwined 10:07 with politics that both actually become corrupt 10:11 and lose their sense of mission. 10:15 Jesus was not politically neutral. 10:19 After all, He's recorded as having said of Herod, 10:24 He says, "That fox." 10:28 And in that day and age just to say something like that 10:31 about the ruler was actually to put your life at threat. 10:36 But at the same time, when Jesus' life was on the line 10:39 and He was in chains before Herod 10:42 on trial as a political pretender, He said to him, 10:47 "I'm not pursuing a political agenda." 10:50 He says, "If I were," He said, "My followers 10:52 would fight for Me." 10:54 He said, "My kingdom is not of this world." 10:57 And I think today in the United States 11:01 an ostensibly religious society but a secular government 11:05 designed to protect religion, there can be no better 11:09 protection for people of faith than to keep out of political 11:13 activity as a religious bloc. 11:16 Of course, individuals have every right to do so. 11:21 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-03-27