Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break we
were really into some...
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...some heavy talking.
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And I think I cut you off a bit.
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No, actually you did
a very concise summary.
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Because I posed to you
the question dealing with
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historical context
of political sermons
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during the American Revolution
as opposed to the idea
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nowadays of churches
that want to make public
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political
expressions in the pulpit.
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And there are some historical
distinct differences, obviously.
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And at the same
time it's something
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that is undergoing debate.
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~ Well religion, the
further back in history you go
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the more powerful
the role of religion was
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in determining public events.
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But even in our day.
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Like we have an
article in an upcoming issue of
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Liberty Magazine, and
the illustration is powerful.
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It's a painting of
Cardinal Spellman with a B-52
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in his hands, as I remember.
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And it tells the
story in the Vietnam War
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where he was dedicating
the bombers as they were
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going off to
fight the Vietnam war.
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And you could make a
pretty good case that the war
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might not have gone on as
long if these major religious
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figures like Spellman hadn't
thrown their weight behind it.
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Before the War of Independence
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there was the
civil war in England,
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which was precipitated,
well, by two things.
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Nominally, the king wanted
money to wage a foreign war.
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But the aggravation
at the time was that
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the Archbishop of Canterbury,
who was accused of being
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a high churchman and
favoring Rome anyway,
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he brought in the new
Book of Common Prayer.
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And the agitation was
so great that it fired up
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the Protestants, the
Puritans particularly,
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to go on the warpath.
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And they saw the king as
representing Catholic interests.
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It's a religious war.
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So how is that
different from today?
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You've got secularists,
you've got signs of immorality
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that bother Christians,
and they want to recapture.
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So there's a religious dynamic.
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And you mentioned
the role of the ministers
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in the War of Independence.
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Of course, religion
was there front and center.
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Some of it was
unavoidable, because religion
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meant so much for them.
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But when the Black Robe Regiment
of the revolutionary pastors
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stood out and argued
for separation from England,
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they became
political operatives.
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And when the Church of
England preachers urged people
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to remain loyal to the crown,
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they were
government exhilarants.
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There's just no
getting around that.
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So based on that, one would
kind of ask the question, right,
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why in the current context
religious groups that are
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seeking political
expression in the pulpit,
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what might be their
motivation for that?
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I mean, based on the historical
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information
you've outlined, right?
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~ Let me ask you
a question again.
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What should be their motivation?
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Not what might it be.
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Shouldn't the motivation
of a pastor standing before
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a congregation be to spread
spirituality and a knowledge of
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the divine, and
lead you to godliness?
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~Yes, and you know, I
think that's the very essence
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of Christianity.
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Do you think
that's what they want
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with the repudiation
of the Johnson Amendment?
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Well it would seem to.
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I mean, kind of the
obvious, right, is that
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if they see the Johnson
Amendment as a prohibition
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of their political expression
and political aspirations,
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then the removal of it is that,
you know, their intention is...
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~ Well, in a way you
didn't answer my question.
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You turned it
instantly to politics.
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But my point is, the
legitimate role of a pastor
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is, yes, to relate modern
concerns in a spiritual context.
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So you can't easily preach
a sermon that's dismissive of
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the prevailing
immorality or the injustice
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that the government
might be perpetrating.
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That can bear on
it, but your spreading
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spiritual truth, and
biblical reference points,
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and godliness,
and sanctification,
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and all those things, right?
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So if that pastor with
that role wants political power,
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is it to enlarge
that sort of message?
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Or is it just to have
power to either force people to
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think as he thinks or to listen
to him against their will?
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Because I'm particularly
convinced that a litmus test
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of religious liberty is,
is there coercion involved?
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~ Well that certainly is true.
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I mean, that's the
end of the whole game.
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And you might not
think it's coercion,
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but a secular person
might think it's there
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and now on their dollar
where they contribute to the
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public goods
through taxes or whatever.
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They're now going to be forced
to either listen to the pastor
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or even be co-opted to
some of his political adventures
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through his direct
activity as political leader.
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I mean, that's an abusive
use of religion, in my view.
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But it fits into a
grand ole model of behavior
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going back into the Middle Ages.
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It's regressive.
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I just do not see
any good need for this.
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There might be a
little arguable need
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if we were under persecution.
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Then you might want to
get into the king's palace
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and whisper in his
ear, as a figurative thing
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to political power, to ease
the persecution on the faithful.
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But that's not the case.
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We're wanting the right
to mandate political actions,
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to order the civil sphere.
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It's crossing the line of
separation of church and state
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in an egregious way.
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Or intention to do it.
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I was going to
mention that it's interesting,
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as you point that out, that
one of the sixteen documents
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that was pronounced by the
Catholic church at Vatican II
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was addressing the role
of the church in society.
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And in essence, what
their document argues
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is that Catholics
have, not only the obligation
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before God, but also
the church encouraging them
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to, as faithful citizens,
to evangelize and Christianize
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society, in essence.
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~ Well I think they do. I
think that's a good statement.
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~ But from the perspective...
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In essence, it's more of a
shift from the church saying,
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we're going to take a
definitive dominant political
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role as an institution,
and instead we're going to
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ask now the members to go
out and perform that role.
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So you know, in that regard...
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~ The Bible calls
that, you're salt.
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You're an agent
for change in society.
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That's what all
churches should be all about.
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It's indeed what all political
action groups are all about.
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They want to start cell
movements and change society.
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I mean, it's only
the dictatorship mindset
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that wants to sit on
the throne, and you know,
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bam, zap, zap, "You do this."
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I think it's a
very natural approach.
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Let me ask you this, kind of
at the core of the whole issue,
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it seems to be, is
that if religious groups of
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whatever persuasion
are motivated by the right,
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how would I call it,
the positive motivation
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to share their faith,
wouldn't that seem to be
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sufficient to gain more
adherence and make change
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in society rather than
trying to legislate it?
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- Is that right? ~ I
can agree, absolutely.
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- Okay, yeah. ~
That's how I would see it.
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That's the natural way.
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And you know, all of
this hand-wringing about
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immorality and
corrupt leadership,
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you don't solve
it by legislation.
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You solve it by proving the
raw material of public service.
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And that's what
Christian witness and
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changing lives is all about.
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You would surely
hope and expect the best,
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sort of, morality and
highest ideals to percolate up
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into the public office.
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But you don't do it
by legislative power.
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I mean, I think if nothing
else, this current round of
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firings and retirements because
of one immoral act or another
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shows that there's too many
people placed in high office
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that have no good
sense of morality.
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And you're not really solving
it by just picking them off
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like in a shooting gallery,
because it surely is saying
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that there's a
corruption that's endemic.
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How do you solve that?
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You solve it by re-education.
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To take a communist term.
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You start dealing
from the ground up,
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changing people's
attitudes, and they will finally
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replace the corrupt leadership.
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I agree with that statement.
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Certainly to bring
about change in society
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one has to start
at the ground level.
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And you know, the
Bible even talks about that,
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where Paul had admonished
Timothy and believers that read
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Scripture to take the
time and study Scriptures.
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And at the end of time
there would be corruption
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of morals and so forth.
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And you know, there's a certain
irony that a few years ago
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we discovered that Billy
Graham, who's sort of the
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patron saint of evangelicals,
in his efforts to gain influence
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and political power, I
don't know if you remember,
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under freedom of
information we hear these tapes,
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were in the back room
with these political leaders.
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He's maligning Jews and speaking
like the ultimate war hawk.
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This was
unseemly for a minister.
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And I think, not just
the leadership, but the
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Christians will be
corrupting their own agenda
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if they seek political power.
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Yeah, certainly society does
show us in history in particular
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that any time that religion
becomes so closely intertwined
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with politics that
both actually become corrupt
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and lose their sense of mission.
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Jesus was not
politically neutral.
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After all, He's recorded
as having said of Herod,
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He says, "That fox."
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And in that day and age
just to say something like that
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about the ruler was actually
to put your life at threat.
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But at the same time, when
Jesus' life was on the line
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and He was in
chains before Herod
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on trial as a political
pretender, He said to him,
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"I'm not pursuing
a political agenda."
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He says, "If I were,"
He said, "My followers
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would fight for Me."
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He said, "My kingdom
is not of this world."
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And I think today
in the United States
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an ostensibly religious
society but a secular government
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designed to protect
religion, there can be no better
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protection for people of faith
than to keep out of political
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activity as a religious bloc.
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Of course, individuals
have every right to do so.
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For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
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