Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000385A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program where you can share with us 00:32 some of the recent developments on religious liberty. 00:35 We'll analyze the issues and discuss the value of 00:39 religious liberty in the modern era. 00:42 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:45 And my guest on the program is Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook, 00:50 with a doctorate in church-state studies, 00:52 and a few articles at Liberty under your belt, 00:55 and quite a few speaking appointments behind you. 00:58 So let's share something about religious liberty, 01:04 but take it from a funny angle; money. 01:06 ~ Alright. 01:07 Although, whether it's religion or crime or politics, 01:12 they often say, "Follow the money," 01:14 and you'll come at it. 01:16 And in the last few months there's been a lot of discussion 01:19 in the U.S. about a new tax bill. 01:21 And I don't know why there's such eternal optimism on this, 01:25 because if you study any history in the U.S. or England 01:28 or western countries, whenever the tax issues came up 01:32 it means more tax dollars. 01:35 Or probably more accurately in the U.S., more debt. 01:39 So there's no free lunch. 01:41 But I noticed that buried in the tax bill 01:45 was the repudiation of what was once buried 01:49 in a tax bill back in the 50's, called the Johnson Amendment. 01:53 ~ Yes. 01:54 Got any thoughts on the Johnson Amendment? 01:56 Well, we do know that in the historical context 02:00 that had been part of the tax bill then 02:03 because the candidates running for office 02:06 felt that religious groups were having too much undue influence 02:10 in the political realm. 02:12 And so as a means of basically curtailing that, 02:16 the Johnson Amendment in essence establishes, 02:18 once it was passed, in essence prohibits 02:21 religious entities from endorsing any particular... 02:24 ~And non-profits, to be fair to it. 02:26 It isn't just taking a shot at religious groups, 02:29 but they clearly were a major target. 02:32 And it's because certain religious groups had opposed 02:35 the re-election of Johnson, Lyndon Johnson. 02:39 So it was a bit of payback. 02:41 And we're caught with a conundrum, a quandary, 02:44 because of this. 02:46 We do want a separation of church and state. 02:48 I do think, and I think you agree, it's not healthy 02:51 for churches to become directly involved in politics 02:54 and fundraising and all the scrabble of political rivalries. 03:00 But it's also not good for the churches to be prohibited 03:04 from having a public voice. 03:06 ~ Expression, yes. 03:08 So it's a problem. 03:09 And President Trump with his alliance, 03:12 rather historical alliance with the religious right, 03:16 by my alights the last time I remember such an alliance 03:18 was when Jimmy Carter was elected. 03:21 And of course, he was a legitimately 03:23 religious figure, of sorts, 03:27 where this is an alliance of expediency 03:30 on both counts, so I think. 03:31 But the president now has made it very plain that 03:35 he intends to overturn the Johnson Amendment. 03:41 But I've been watching it, and I noticed that it was added 03:43 quietly to the tax bill. 03:46 Which is not yet, as we sit here now, been passed. 03:49 Probably will in some form or another. 03:51 But in its present form it suddenly was taken off 03:55 just in the last couple of days. 03:58 Which is interesting, but I don't think 04:00 that's the end of the game. 04:01 I think one way or another it's going to be undone. 04:05 Maybe just by executive order. 04:07 ~ Let me ask you this, Lincoln. 04:09 You know on my end, I was not aware of the 04:11 most recent kind of development where originally it has been 04:15 introduced, and now it has been taken out 04:17 of the current tax bill. 04:19 ~ I just heard it on the news. So within 24 hours. 04:21 So let me kind of throw this out there. 04:23 What would you envision, kind of, the development... 04:26 Let's just say that hypothetically 04:28 if the Johnson Amendment were repealed, 04:32 what would you see developing? 04:34 - With religious groups. - The effect? 04:35 Yes, yes, the outcome of it. 04:39 I think a medieval model where the church is becoming 04:42 direct political players, like Cardinal Richelieu in France. 04:50 How does that strike you? 04:52 Well, I do know historically, your comment jogged my memory, 04:57 that in Mexico one of the... 05:01 I guess one can say, ever since the 1850's 05:03 there has been a church-state struggle 05:05 that has been going on in Mexico, 05:08 that for a period of time they ousted Catholicism 05:12 and did not allow the priests to have direct influence. 05:15 They weren't allowed to vote. 05:17 And then that led to the Cristiada back in the 1920's 05:21 where actually Catholic priests began to, 05:24 they would not allow Catholic members that had 05:27 loved ones who died, they weren't allowed to bury them, 05:30 they did not perform the mass, they did not perform marriages. 05:33 In Essence, they shut down any religious service 05:36 because they felt like they were being ostracized. 05:38 And priests who were from Spain were sent out. 05:41 ~ Correct. - Ejected out of the country. 05:43 And other priests were even physically harmed. 05:45 It was a serious push against clericalism. 05:50 And priests were not allowed during that time period... 05:52 ~ To wear their vestments outside the church. 05:54 Yes, and also not allowed to have any kind of 05:56 role in politics. 05:58 So as a response to that, the church basically 06:00 shut down its services to make a statement. 06:03 And eventually the priests organized the people 06:07 to protest against the government for that reason. 06:10 And then in the 1930's, afterwards for about 06:14 two decades there was kind of a resurgence of Catholicism, 06:18 and then a wane. 06:19 And during the time period of Vicente Fox 06:22 the church actually had more of a resurgence. 06:23 He gave them favors, in essence. 06:26 ~ And throughout Latin America that's where the 06:28 Roman Catholics ended up, the churches ended up. 06:30 They're not the sole religious political power, 06:35 but they're the first among equals. 06:37 They get preferential treatment. 06:38 But other religions are allowed to be players too. 06:42 But now what I think will happen if the Johnson Amendment 06:44 is repudiated. 06:47 It's not really quite along the lines of Mexico, 06:51 which of course morphed into that from a medieval model. 06:55 I mean, the Inquisition, after all, continued the longest 06:59 in Latin America than in Europe. 07:03 So it was heavy-handedness, and this was a reaction to the 07:06 heavy-handedness of a monolithic church. 07:08 But what I believe will happen is something 07:11 analogous to Italy. 07:15 You know, in Italy they have parties. 07:17 Christian democrat, say. 07:20 There are parties that their whole identity 07:24 and agenda is religious. 07:27 It's a few decades now since Pat Robertson ran for president. 07:32 But you know, with the Johnson Amendment gone 07:34 you can have a religious right faction made up of a 07:37 coalition of evangelical pastors raise their own fund, 07:41 have their own power base, their own constituents base, 07:44 and put forth a presidential candidate. 07:46 So it would be the religious party, 07:48 a particular religious party. 07:50 Now that, your comment there about a faction, 07:52 kind of jogs my memory. 07:54 James Madison... 07:56 They were against factionalism, exactly. 07:57 ...in Number 51, what he wrote in the letters that he wrote 08:03 on those topics, where he talked about the idea of the... 08:07 ~ By the way, they were against political parties too. 08:10 They didn't like the Whigs and the Tories in England. 08:13 ~ Yeah, it wasn't just religious. 08:14 Right, and never expected the naughty party setup here. 08:19 When George Washington was made president 08:21 there was no party. 08:23 They were people that ran for office. 08:25 ~ Correct. 08:26 So what Madison was stating is that by not allowing 08:30 any one faction to gain that kind of influence 08:33 in a state or throughout the country, it would help 08:36 prevent any predominant group taking control over the country 08:41 or undoing the Constitution, etcetera. 08:43 So I think that there was wisdom in what he argued for. 08:47 How that plays out in practical terms, of course, 08:50 is something that it kind of depends on circumstances 08:53 and historical time period, you know. 08:55 And I have, not a different take, but a take on this whole 09:00 Johnson Amendment colored by an article 09:03 that we had in Liberty Magazine... 09:06 ...time goes by, but at least ten years ago... 09:10 ...by D. James Kennedy, who use to be very well 09:13 known in the United States. 09:14 He was one of the major television evangelists. 09:17 He had a ministry out of Coral Gables. 09:20 I think he was... What's the Scottish church? 09:25 Not Presbyterianism. 09:27 Episcopalian? No? 09:29 It is Presbyterian. 09:30 Presbyterian pastor. 09:33 But he use to give his sermons, he was a very engaging speaker. 09:36 But not arms waving all over. 09:38 He was very dignified, always wore his robes. 09:41 And you know, he had a large following. 09:45 But he had come out very publicly in a political way 09:49 pushing for what was called then the Jones Bill. 09:53 And I had him write an article for Liberty, 09:56 of course in favor of the Jones Bill. 09:58 And then I wrote a long editorial note underneath it 10:03 saying why we were against it. 10:04 And I told him I would do it, you know. 10:05 I didn't do anything unfair. 10:07 I wanted to give him a forum to discuss it, but I wasn't 10:10 going to endorse it. 10:11 Because I think it's very dangerous. 10:13 But his view was that the churches need to have a voice. 10:16 They need to be unbound. 10:18 And with the Jones Amendment they would have been... 10:20 This was, remember, at the time when McCain-Feingold 10:25 campaign reform thing came along. 10:27 Which has been broken now by the CPAC things 10:30 that can short-circuit the whole thing. 10:33 But the desire was to limit monies involved in the 10:35 political process and factionalism. 10:39 And the Jones Bill would have allowed them to raise 10:41 unlimited monies for candidates and parties, 10:44 give them unlimited forum in front of the churches. 10:48 And basically, the church easily could become 10:51 an even more dominate political power 10:53 than the parties themselves. 10:55 I mean, I don't see how American democracy would 10:58 remain anything like it is today with that sort of a dynamic. 11:02 - You've got figure. ~ Let me ask you this... 11:04 So that's what lies behind the repudiation 11:07 of the Johnson Amendment. 11:08 Which in itself is fairly innocuous, 11:11 produces a good result, but it might be overreach 11:14 in putting it in place. 11:16 But we know what they really want. 11:17 It's not a lack of a heavy hand in the government, 11:21 it's control of the whole process. 11:24 ~ So let me ask you this. 11:26 Just on a kind of comparative basis, right. 11:29 The current context of, one would say, political expression 11:33 in the pulpit compared to the time period when 11:38 we were in the colonial era moving into nationhood; 11:44 where you had pulpits of where there was political expression 11:48 that was given to rally the citizens, the colonists, 11:51 in the overthrow of Britain. 11:54 So kind of, what would be your take on that historically? 11:57 I don't think that was good for the church. 12:00 I mean, if you're just looking narrowly at the success of 12:04 the American Revolution, it probably wouldn't have proceeded 12:08 as well without the... 12:10 What do they call them? The Black Robe Regiment. 12:15 The pro-separationist pastors. 12:19 But remember, the obverse is that most people 12:21 won't belong to the Church of England. 12:23 And by and large, the Church of England was supporting 12:26 the role of the crown. 12:28 And it's no accident that to this day you don't call it 12:30 the Church of England in the U.S. 12:33 It became unpopular and it was seen as the Old World, 12:37 and we didn't want loyalties to England. 12:38 So it called it, Episcopal. 12:42 So on that side it was bad. 12:44 They were so identified with England 12:46 that it went badly for them. 12:50 And I think, yes, the outcome of the War of Independence 12:54 might have been good, but that was a moment 12:56 when preachers were greatly politicized. 13:00 And it didn't help the spirituality that they 13:02 should have been performing, spiritual service. 13:04 ~ So looking at it historically then, 13:06 you might say that in a current context, 13:10 you know, there's no revolution, in essence, 13:12 that is occurring, as far as like throwing off the yoke 13:16 of a foreign power. 13:17 ~ No, this is purely a desire for more power 13:21 by the so-called religious right, which has been around 13:24 at the very least since the 70's. 13:27 And it's had ups and downs. 13:29 And they want a larger role. 13:31 And there's many things playing into it. 13:34 Increasing secularization, the abortion debate frustrated them. 13:37 And of course, they were co-opted by Roman Catholicism. 13:40 As you know. 13:41 The reason Roman Catholics are against abortion 13:43 is far deeper than the Protestant one. 13:45 It's original sin and all sorts of goodies. 13:49 But that and the homosexual movement, feminism. 13:54 All in offense to, and correctly so, to people of 13:57 a true religious of sensibility. 13:59 But when you want to change it and think that you can 14:02 change it back to the holy nation, 14:03 you want political power to do so. 14:05 And I think that... 14:07 Oh, and also what's frustrating them is 14:09 the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, 14:12 along with a rising fundamentalism, 14:14 not fundamentalism, but a rising Islamic presence, 14:18 which is another cultural religious identity. 14:21 Which, you know, it's slipping away. 14:23 So it's the lost cause. 14:24 Let's reclaim America. 14:27 Well, make America great again. 14:31 We'll be back after a short break, 14:33 so stay with us and we'll continue this discussion. |
Revised 2018-03-27