Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program
where you can share with us
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some of the recent developments
on religious liberty.
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We'll analyze the
issues and discuss the value of
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religious liberty
in the modern era.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the
program is Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook,
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with a doctorate in
church-state studies,
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and a few articles at
Liberty under your belt,
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and quite a few speaking
appointments behind you.
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So let's share something
about religious liberty,
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but take it from a
funny angle; money.
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~ Alright.
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Although, whether it's
religion or crime or politics,
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they often say,
"Follow the money,"
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and you'll come at it.
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And in the last few months
there's been a lot of discussion
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in the U.S.
about a new tax bill.
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And I don't know why there's
such eternal optimism on this,
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because if you study any
history in the U.S. or England
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or western countries,
whenever the tax issues came up
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it means more tax dollars.
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Or probably more accurately
in the U.S., more debt.
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So there's no free lunch.
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But I noticed that
buried in the tax bill
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was the repudiation
of what was once buried
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in a tax bill back in the 50's,
called the Johnson Amendment.
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~ Yes.
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Got any thoughts on
the Johnson Amendment?
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Well, we do know that
in the historical context
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that had been part
of the tax bill then
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because the
candidates running for office
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felt that religious groups were
having too much undue influence
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in the political realm.
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And so as a means of
basically curtailing that,
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the Johnson Amendment
in essence establishes,
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once it was passed,
in essence prohibits
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religious entities from
endorsing any particular...
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~And
non-profits, to be fair to it.
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It isn't just taking a
shot at religious groups,
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but they clearly
were a major target.
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And it's because certain
religious groups had opposed
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the re-election of
Johnson, Lyndon Johnson.
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So it was a bit of payback.
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And we're caught with
a conundrum, a quandary,
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because of this.
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We do want a
separation of church and state.
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I do think, and I think
you agree, it's not healthy
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for churches to become
directly involved in politics
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and fundraising and all the
scrabble of political rivalries.
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But it's also not good for
the churches to be prohibited
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from having a public voice.
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~ Expression, yes.
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So it's a problem.
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And President
Trump with his alliance,
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rather historical alliance
with the religious right,
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by my alights the last
time I remember such an alliance
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was when Jimmy
Carter was elected.
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And of course, he
was a legitimately
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religious figure, of sorts,
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where this is an
alliance of expediency
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on both counts, so I think.
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But the president now
has made it very plain that
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he intends to
overturn the Johnson Amendment.
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But I've been watching it,
and I noticed that it was added
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quietly to the tax bill.
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Which is not yet, as we
sit here now, been passed.
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Probably will in
some form or another.
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But in its present form
it suddenly was taken off
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just in the last couple of days.
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Which is
interesting, but I don't think
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that's the end of the game.
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I think one way or
another it's going to be undone.
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Maybe just by executive order.
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~ Let me ask you this, Lincoln.
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You know on my end,
I was not aware of the
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most recent kind of development
where originally it has been
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introduced, and now
it has been taken out
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of the current tax bill.
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~ I just heard it on the
news. So within 24 hours.
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So let me kind of
throw this out there.
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What would you envision,
kind of, the development...
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Let's just say
that hypothetically
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if the Johnson
Amendment were repealed,
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what would you see developing?
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- With religious
groups. - The effect?
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Yes, yes, the outcome of it.
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I think a medieval model
where the church is becoming
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direct political players, like
Cardinal Richelieu in France.
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How does that strike you?
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Well, I do know historically,
your comment jogged my memory,
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that in Mexico one of the...
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I guess one can say,
ever since the 1850's
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there has been a
church-state struggle
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that has been
going on in Mexico,
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that for a period of
time they ousted Catholicism
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and did not allow the priests
to have direct influence.
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They weren't allowed to vote.
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And then that led to the
Cristiada back in the 1920's
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where actually
Catholic priests began to,
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they would not allow
Catholic members that had
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loved ones who died, they
weren't allowed to bury them,
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they did not perform the mass,
they did not perform marriages.
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In Essence, they shut
down any religious service
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because they felt like
they were being ostracized.
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And priests who were
from Spain were sent out.
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~ Correct. -
Ejected out of the country.
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And other priests were
even physically harmed.
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It was a serious
push against clericalism.
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And priests were not allowed
during that time period...
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~ To wear their
vestments outside the church.
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Yes, and also not
allowed to have any kind of
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role in politics.
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So as a response to
that, the church basically
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shut down its
services to make a statement.
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And eventually the
priests organized the people
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to protest against the
government for that reason.
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And then in the
1930's, afterwards for about
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two decades there was kind
of a resurgence of Catholicism,
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and then a wane.
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And during the time
period of Vicente Fox
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the church actually
had more of a resurgence.
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He gave them favors, in essence.
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~ And throughout Latin
America that's where the
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Roman Catholics ended
up, the churches ended up.
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They're not the sole
religious political power,
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but they're the
first among equals.
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They get preferential treatment.
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But other religions are
allowed to be players too.
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But now what I think will
happen if the Johnson Amendment
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is repudiated.
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It's not really quite
along the lines of Mexico,
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which of course morphed
into that from a medieval model.
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I mean, the Inquisition,
after all, continued the longest
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in Latin America than in Europe.
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So it was heavy-handedness,
and this was a reaction to the
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heavy-handedness of
a monolithic church.
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But what I believe
will happen is something
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analogous to Italy.
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You know, in
Italy they have parties.
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Christian democrat, say.
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There are parties
that their whole identity
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and agenda is religious.
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It's a few decades now since
Pat Robertson ran for president.
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But you know, with
the Johnson Amendment gone
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you can have a religious
right faction made up of a
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coalition of evangelical
pastors raise their own fund,
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have their own power base,
their own constituents base,
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and put forth a
presidential candidate.
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So it would be
the religious party,
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a particular religious party.
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Now that, your
comment there about a faction,
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kind of jogs my memory.
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James Madison...
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They were against
factionalism, exactly.
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...in Number 51, what he wrote
in the letters that he wrote
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on those topics, where he
talked about the idea of the...
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~ By the way, they were
against political parties too.
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They didn't like the
Whigs and the Tories in England.
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~ Yeah, it
wasn't just religious.
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Right, and never expected
the naughty party setup here.
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When George
Washington was made president
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there was no party.
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They were people
that ran for office.
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~ Correct.
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So what Madison was
stating is that by not allowing
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any one faction to
gain that kind of influence
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in a state or throughout
the country, it would help
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prevent any predominant group
taking control over the country
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or undoing the
Constitution, etcetera.
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So I think that there was
wisdom in what he argued for.
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How that plays out in
practical terms, of course,
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is something that it kind
of depends on circumstances
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and historical
time period, you know.
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And I have, not a different
take, but a take on this whole
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Johnson Amendment
colored by an article
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that we had in
Liberty Magazine...
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...time goes by, but
at least ten years ago...
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...by D. James
Kennedy, who use to be very well
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known in the United States.
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He was one of the
major television evangelists.
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He had a ministry
out of Coral Gables.
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I think he was...
What's the Scottish church?
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Not Presbyterianism.
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Episcopalian? No?
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It is Presbyterian.
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Presbyterian pastor.
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But he use to give his sermons,
he was a very engaging speaker.
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But not arms waving all over.
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He was very dignified,
always wore his robes.
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And you know, he
had a large following.
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But he had come out very
publicly in a political way
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pushing for what was
called then the Jones Bill.
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And I had him write
an article for Liberty,
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of course in
favor of the Jones Bill.
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And then I wrote a long
editorial note underneath it
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saying why we were against it.
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And I told him I
would do it, you know.
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I didn't do anything unfair.
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I wanted to give him a forum
to discuss it, but I wasn't
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going to endorse it.
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Because I think
it's very dangerous.
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But his view was that the
churches need to have a voice.
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They need to be unbound.
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And with the Jones Amendment
they would have been...
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This was, remember, at
the time when McCain-Feingold
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campaign reform
thing came along.
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Which has been broken
now by the CPAC things
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that can
short-circuit the whole thing.
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But the desire was to
limit monies involved in the
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political
process and factionalism.
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And the Jones Bill would
have allowed them to raise
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unlimited monies for
candidates and parties,
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give them unlimited
forum in front of the churches.
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And basically, the
church easily could become
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an even more
dominate political power
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than the parties themselves.
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I mean, I don't see how
American democracy would
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remain anything like it is today
with that sort of a dynamic.
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- You've got figure.
~ Let me ask you this...
00:11:02.59\00:11:04.26
So that's what lies
behind the repudiation
00:11:04.29\00:11:07.10
of the Johnson Amendment.
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Which in itself
is fairly innocuous,
00:11:08.50\00:11:11.93
produces a good result,
but it might be overreach
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in putting it in place.
00:11:14.77\00:11:16.27
But we know what
they really want.
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It's not a lack of a
heavy hand in the government,
00:11:17.81\00:11:21.61
it's control of
the whole process.
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~ So let me ask you this.
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Just on a kind of
comparative basis, right.
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The current context of, one
would say, political expression
00:11:29.18\00:11:33.79
in the pulpit compared
to the time period when
00:11:33.82\00:11:37.76
we were in the colonial
era moving into nationhood;
00:11:38.33\00:11:43.53
where you had pulpits of where
there was political expression
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that was given to rally
the citizens, the colonists,
00:11:48.00\00:11:51.34
in the overthrow of Britain.
00:11:51.74\00:11:53.68
So kind of, what would be
your take on that historically?
00:11:54.11\00:11:57.41
I don't think that
was good for the church.
00:11:57.45\00:12:00.18
I mean, if you're just looking
narrowly at the success of
00:12:00.22\00:12:04.49
the American Revolution, it
probably wouldn't have proceeded
00:12:04.52\00:12:08.29
as well without the...
00:12:08.32\00:12:10.53
What do they call them?
The Black Robe Regiment.
00:12:10.76\00:12:14.70
The pro-separationist pastors.
00:12:15.43\00:12:18.53
But remember, the
obverse is that most people
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won't belong to
the Church of England.
00:12:21.97\00:12:23.61
And by and large, the
Church of England was supporting
00:12:23.64\00:12:26.61
the role of the crown.
00:12:26.64\00:12:28.11
And it's no accident that
to this day you don't call it
00:12:28.14\00:12:30.78
the Church of
England in the U.S.
00:12:30.81\00:12:32.38
It became unpopular and
it was seen as the Old World,
00:12:33.31\00:12:37.59
and we didn't want
loyalties to England.
00:12:37.62\00:12:38.95
So it called it, Episcopal.
00:12:38.99\00:12:40.39
So on that side it was bad.
00:12:42.52\00:12:44.13
They were so
identified with England
00:12:44.16\00:12:46.80
that it went badly for them.
00:12:46.83\00:12:50.20
And I think, yes, the outcome
of the War of Independence
00:12:50.40\00:12:54.27
might have been
good, but that was a moment
00:12:54.30\00:12:56.04
when preachers were
greatly politicized.
00:12:56.07\00:12:59.84
And it didn't help
the spirituality that they
00:13:00.18\00:13:02.84
should have been
performing, spiritual service.
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~ So looking at
it historically then,
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you might say that
in a current context,
00:13:06.82\00:13:09.75
you know, there's no
revolution, in essence,
00:13:10.05\00:13:12.09
that is occurring, as far
as like throwing off the yoke
00:13:12.12\00:13:16.22
of a foreign power.
00:13:16.26\00:13:17.59
~ No, this is purely
a desire for more power
00:13:17.63\00:13:20.86
by the so-called religious
right, which has been around
00:13:21.20\00:13:24.63
at the very
least since the 70's.
00:13:24.67\00:13:26.84
And it's had ups and downs.
00:13:27.17\00:13:28.50
And they want a larger role.
00:13:29.70\00:13:31.94
And there's many
things playing into it.
00:13:31.97\00:13:34.08
Increasing secularization, the
abortion debate frustrated them.
00:13:34.11\00:13:37.91
And of course, they were
co-opted by Roman Catholicism.
00:13:37.95\00:13:40.22
As you know.
00:13:40.25\00:13:41.58
The reason Roman
Catholics are against abortion
00:13:41.65\00:13:43.95
is far deeper than
the Protestant one.
00:13:43.99\00:13:45.69
It's original sin
and all sorts of goodies.
00:13:45.72\00:13:49.02
But that and the
homosexual movement, feminism.
00:13:49.66\00:13:54.46
All in offense to, and
correctly so, to people of
00:13:54.50\00:13:57.90
a true religious of sensibility.
00:13:57.93\00:13:59.43
But when you want to
change it and think that you can
00:13:59.53\00:14:02.00
change it back
to the holy nation,
00:14:02.04\00:14:03.71
you want
political power to do so.
00:14:03.74\00:14:05.47
And I think that...
00:14:05.71\00:14:07.04
Oh, and also
what's frustrating them is
00:14:07.21\00:14:09.41
the rise of
Islamic fundamentalism,
00:14:09.44\00:14:12.25
along with a
rising fundamentalism,
00:14:12.28\00:14:14.88
not fundamentalism, but
a rising Islamic presence,
00:14:14.92\00:14:18.29
which is another
cultural religious identity.
00:14:18.89\00:14:21.56
Which, you know,
it's slipping away.
00:14:21.59\00:14:23.32
So it's the lost cause.
00:14:23.36\00:14:24.79
Let's reclaim America.
00:14:24.83\00:14:27.66
Well, make America great again.
00:14:27.70\00:14:30.23
We'll be back
after a short break,
00:14:31.03\00:14:33.10
so stay with us and
we'll continue this discussion.
00:14:33.30\00:14:36.00