Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000384B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:08 Before the break I was making an unforgettable point 00:11 that I've forgotten now. 00:13 But we need to pick up. 00:15 We've talked about secularism and some of the conundrums 00:18 that are built into the modern mind. 00:23 We basically need to believe, and yet the modern world 00:26 has given us so many counter-facts and disturbing 00:31 counter arguments that it's hard to have a simple faith. 00:34 ~ Yep. 00:36 And I think that's the greatest risk, is we come to what 00:40 I think many Christians, certainly Adventists 00:42 would say, the end of time. 00:44 We're in the last days. 00:46 Jesus said that. That was 2000 years ago. 00:49 We're also told in our Adventist writings, 00:53 picking up from Daniel and elsewhere, 00:54 that the last movements will be rapid ones. 00:56 And we're in such a time of rapid, not just developments, 01:01 but social change. 01:03 You know, I've pointed out to people that if you 01:06 think about it, the industrial revolution shook the world up, 01:09 caused wars and dislocations and famines, and all the rest. 01:13 And that took place over about a hundred years at least. 01:16 But in a couple of decades our world has been turned 01:19 on its head by computerization and the whole electronic... 01:22 ~ The internet. - Yeah. 01:23 I mean, that's a massive revolution. 01:26 But it happened in a much shorter time. 01:28 So we're absorbing change almost weekly now 01:32 that other generations might not have seen in a lifetime. 01:35 ~ Correct. 01:37 It's hard to keep faith, it's hard to keep religion 01:39 in its appropriate sphere when this is going on. 01:43 Yeah, I was going to say that, you know, so much information 01:46 in such a short time, psychologically anyway, 01:49 can have that impact of disorienting 01:51 one generation to the next, you know. 01:53 And that of course would have some kind of an impact 01:56 on one's faith and orientation. 01:59 And in the larger picture, the larger scheme of things, 02:02 looking at church-state relations and secularism, 02:05 and you know, what role it may or may not have, 02:08 I think that it's important to note that at least in the 02:11 American context there are certain religious groups 02:15 that will argue that point as a straw man to argue the need to 02:20 establish religion by government decree, in essence. 02:24 ~ Well I think that's where we're heading. 02:28 Things are so out of control, not at the moment. 02:33 Every day somebody has lost their job because of some 02:36 action or statement at work that's just unacceptable. 02:39 You know, it's not that it was ever acceptable, but 02:42 we're sort of in a moralistic purge at the moment. 02:47 And that's unsettling people. 02:49 Then you've got natural calamities, you've got 02:52 looming war and so on. 02:56 It's certain, and we've heard it already from a few 02:58 of the leaders, like, after 9/11. 03:00 You know, "This has come upon us because of homosexuality." 03:03 Right? 03:05 You can bet your life that at some point the U.S. is going to 03:09 seek a grand religious solution to all of this. 03:12 ~ Yep. 03:14 Apart from martial law and other possibilities. 03:16 They all may happen. 03:18 But there has to be a religious rallying point. 03:21 Yeah, and that's why I think it's so important, 03:24 you know, the contributions like through your program 03:27 helping us to be informed about not only the American context, 03:31 but what's happening in church-state 03:33 relations in other countries. 03:34 Because those are things we can learn from. 03:36 You know, for example, in France ever since 03:39 the French Revolution... 03:40 ~ That's a very different model. - Yes. 03:41 They adopted more of a laicité model. 03:44 You know history very well. 03:46 Most people have forgotten it. 03:47 But the French Revolution, there were many causes to it. 03:50 Not least of which a great disparity 03:53 between the rich and the poor. 03:55 Remember Marie Antoinette. 03:56 When she heard the crowds were rioting for bread, 03:59 "Well, let them eat cake." 04:01 For her there was plenty of cake around. 04:02 She didn't realize they had nothing. 04:04 But all of that was at play, but what really went on 04:06 in France, when you talk about religion, 04:08 there was a violent rejection of religion 04:11 and the role of the Roman Catholic Church, 04:13 which was part and parcel of their oppression. 04:15 ~ Anti-clericalism. 04:17 Yeah, so it really was, "Get rid of the lot of them." 04:20 And of course, those days are long gone. 04:23 But I think residually there's a suspicion in France 04:26 of an intrusion by any religion. 04:29 Where the U.S. has never had that. 04:31 Yeah, and in America, you know, we can be thankful 04:35 for the contributions of John Locke from England, 04:38 which he adopted more of the, what we would call, 04:40 the English enlightenment that saw a positive role 04:44 for religion in society. 04:46 Not necessarily endorsed by government, 04:48 but nonetheless a positive role. 04:50 And in essence, one can kind of summarize it 04:53 by saying that in the American context our key founding fathers 04:57 recognized that religion, not only did it hold 05:00 government accountable as the highest authority, 05:03 but the citizen was held accountable 05:05 to some kind of a concept of a just rewards or penalty 05:10 at the end of one's life. 05:11 So with those elements in society, it gave an undergirding 05:15 for morality. 05:17 ~ Yeah. 05:18 I think though it... 05:20 Now I'm getting into my philosophy. 05:21 There's two elements among many others probably 05:24 that partly explain what happened in the U.S. 05:28 You can't separate the thinkers like, 05:33 well, Franklin and his peers, you can't separate them 05:36 from Englishmen. 05:37 They were Englishmen. 05:39 They just happened to be on this side of the big pond. 05:41 And what was happening in England, they hadn't rejected 05:45 religion, but because of science and enlightenment, and so on, 05:50 they had a form of religion called deism. 05:52 It's basically, don't deny God, but you're sort of 05:55 you're an atheist on a lot of the particulars. 05:58 So it was, the Bible says, having the form of religion 06:00 but denying the power thereof. 06:02 Right? 06:03 So I think most of them had that view. 06:07 They weren't anti-religious, but they had sort of a... 06:10 ~ Deistic viewpoint. 06:11 ...deistic cynicism. 06:14 Then some of them, like Patrick Henry, you know, 06:20 he would stamp you down and stick the spear in 06:23 if you were of a different religion. 06:24 He was a religious zealot, right? 06:26 But they were afraid of those types. 06:30 And there were not enough of them in any one faction 06:33 to really force this country into a religious identity. 06:37 And something we barely talk about on this program, 06:41 established churches were very common in the colonies. 06:45 But they were not the same churches 06:46 from one place to the other. 06:48 So it was Balkanized. 06:50 And all of them had an interest in making sure 06:53 federal government was neutral. 06:55 So many things conspired. 06:57 Some sociological, some educational, 06:59 some just structural. 07:01 ~ Religious differences, denomination differences. 07:04 So it isn't true to say that all of them wanted religion 07:08 out of the public sphere, but for a variety of reasons 07:10 all of them saw that as the safe course. 07:14 And I think they were vindicated in it. 07:16 And to this day American culture, while it's hedonistic 07:20 as any in the West, you know, a lot of bread, even cake, 07:24 leads to obesity and lax morals, and all the rest. 07:29 You know, we're hardly the godliest nation. 07:31 But the religious affinities of the United States 07:35 are very strong, much stronger than Europe. 07:38 And religious dynamic has to be taken into account. 07:41 It's a good thing. 07:42 It can be steered in very positive directions. 07:45 More easily than the Old World, and clearly way more easily 07:51 than countries on the fringe of the Christian world, 07:54 or even other religious cultures that don't have 07:59 the same enlightened history that the West has gone through. 08:02 ~ Correct. And you know, that's why I think 08:04 that church-state scholars correctly analyzing American 08:08 history and documents, you know, decisions by the Supreme Court, 08:12 etcetera, when they look at the American context 08:16 and they term it benevolent neutrality. 08:19 In essence, meaning that government is there as a 08:22 neutral arbiter among religious groups, not showing preference. 08:24 ~ It has a favorable view of religion. 08:26 Yes, Correct. Not anti-religious. 08:28 No, and I hope that net day never comes. 08:31 ~ Yes. - And we certainly... 08:34 There's no evidence that the present government 08:36 even though we have a very secular president, 08:38 there's hardly an antagonism to religion. 08:41 ~ Correct. 08:43 And in fact, President Trump, I think a little bit 08:47 outrageously, has been called the modern Cyrus. 08:50 So they're reading into his secularism 08:52 great religious import. 08:55 Well you know, I believe that at any point in American history 08:58 there certainly are groups, religious groups, that will seek 09:01 affinity with whoever it may be that's in power, 09:05 seeking favors or whatever. 09:07 But that's also why, as you pointed out, 09:09 I think that the founding fathers wisely instituted 09:12 through the Constitution and through the First Amendment 09:14 that idea of separation of church and state. 09:16 ~ It's a wonderful protective mechanism. 09:19 And this program and Liberty Magazine 09:21 are always arguing for separation of church and state. 09:25 So those ideas of the separation of church and state 09:27 are found in the American Constitution 09:30 as well as in other founding documents, 09:32 the Declaration of Independence. 09:34 It argues for the idea of respect for religion, 09:37 but at the same time no undue preference for religion. 09:41 And for that reason a very distinct separation between 09:43 church and state, in which each fulfills their given role 09:47 to provide a well ordered society where peace 09:51 can prevail among its citizens 09:53 and where various religious views can be expounded upon 09:58 and accepted by citizens as they weigh them out 10:01 and make decisions of their own. 10:06 Stalin's Gulags aside, it seems to me that secularism is less 10:12 an antagonist for religion than an unwilling listener. 10:18 Sort of a, "I don't want to hear about it," cynic. 10:23 Secularism is indeed a byproduct of the modern era 10:27 where the business of life has crowded out the Divine. 10:32 And I think rather than seeing secularism 10:35 as another religion, as it's been said, 10:38 or an overt enemy, religionists, and Christians in particular, 10:42 should see secularism as the great challenge 10:45 to engage the secular mindset with something 10:49 that has a higher transcendent appealing value. 10:53 But to see secularism as the enemy directly 10:57 is like the boring preacher to accuse the unlistening crowd 11:03 of being irreligious. 11:07 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-04-05