Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000384A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a program bringing you news, views, discussion 00:31 on religious liberty events in the U.S. and around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 A magazine of well over 100 years history dealing with 00:43 church-state issues and the separation of church and state. 00:46 And my guest is Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook. 00:50 Welcome back, you've been on this program before. 00:53 And you've written quite a few articles for Liberty Magazine. 00:57 So you're a true insider. 00:59 And since your doctorate is on church-state studies, 01:01 let's hit the ground running 01:04 by talking about secularism. 01:08 It's been trendy of late, in religious liberty circles 01:11 at least, to see the challenge to religious liberty 01:16 as from a secular quarter. 01:18 And I remember a few years ago now, but it seems like yesterday 01:22 to me, Pope Benedict, when he was newly mentored, 01:26 gave a speech at Regensburg University 01:29 where he laid an awful lot of the ills troubling Christianity 01:34 at the feet of secularism. 01:37 ~ Yes. - You remember that? 01:39 - The Regensburg speech? ~ Oh yes, yes. 01:40 ~ So where does secularism figure into all this? 01:43 Well the first thing, just kind of oriented from that speech, 01:46 right, from 1962 when Vatican II took place 01:50 until the current time, the perspective of the 01:53 Catholic church globally is that secularism is something that 01:57 due to several German philosophers like 02:00 Emile Durkhiem, Max Weber, and at one time Peter Berger... 02:04 Now Peter Berger has switched. 02:06 He use to argue that eventually societies would evolve 02:10 around the world until they all become purely secular. 02:13 Meaning, having no religious orientation. 02:16 But he's changed his viewpoint. 02:17 I don't want to rain on your parade, but this is my view. 02:20 Do you think philosophers determine the way the 02:22 world thinks, or the other way around? 02:24 They reflect what the world thinks. 02:26 Well, they have had quite a lot of influence in some, yeah. 02:29 I mean like for example Friedrich Nietzsche. 02:31 You know, his writings railing against God, 02:34 and the, "God is dead," idea that ended up playing over 02:37 into the following century in the 1900's 02:39 and that were picked up and adopted by 02:42 portions of Nazism. 02:43 ~ Yes, absolutely. 02:45 And that's what popularized Nietzsche more than just the 02:47 intellectuals that might have read him. 02:48 - Another interesting... - But I think whether... 02:50 I'm not nay-saying that, but I think the biggest 02:54 sweep of history, the explanation for our 02:56 modern secularism, is more easily found in the 03:01 disillusionment that followed the great war, 03:04 and the killing off and the seeming failure of religion, 03:08 and the possibility, which we've never gotten over 03:11 under the nuclear threat, the possibility that, you know, 03:15 it's all going to blow up in our face at any moment. 03:17 So it's certainly, between the wars it was, you know, 03:21 "wine, women, and song," the flappers, 03:23 and the Berlin nightlife. 03:25 I think that's where this prevailing secularism 03:29 hit western society. 03:31 And it was popularized by a number of philosophers 03:34 who codified what was sort of floating around in the... 03:39 What's the word they used? 03:40 ...the... ...the... 03:43 Hmm. ...the, the... 03:45 There's a term now online for the global mindset. 03:52 ~ Globalization? Global community? 03:53 ~ No, I'll think about it later. 03:55 ...the... But anyhow. 03:58 You know, most people don't read philosophers. 04:00 You know that. 04:02 They have an influence that percolates through. 04:04 Just like laws and people obeying them. 04:08 Which comes first, the desire to pass the laws 04:11 or do the laws create the behavior. 04:14 Well, there certainly is, one can say, some 04:17 reason, ration, to that argument. 04:19 At the same time, though, you know, I would kind of 04:21 look at some historical documents. 04:23 The Catholic church back in the late 1800's 04:26 identified within Christianity a movement among 04:32 Protestant theologians that was more from a Bible-centered 04:36 bases of faith moving to the idea 04:39 of higher criticism of the Bible. 04:41 And that was part of what came out of a Christian perspective. 04:46 Christian philosophy, you might say. 04:48 But at the same time, I believe that there were 04:50 secular philosophers that bought into that 04:53 and contributed to it, in essence, 04:55 that developed more of the idea of a secular idea. 04:58 Ideas on higher criticism, I think it came 05:03 from increased knowledge and learning. 05:05 I don't think it came from citizenism. 05:06 It just came from knowledge. 05:08 And most particularly, because I'm barely old enough 05:11 to remember it, the Dead Sea Scrolls 05:14 opened Pandora's box, and it's never quite been closed. 05:19 But people just decided, stop talking about it. 05:23 There are things that came out of the Dead Sea Scrolls 05:25 that are problematic to this day 05:29 about the extent of the canon 05:33 and what else existed, and so on. 05:37 ~ Yeah, that is certainly true. 05:39 But you know, the thing that I would kind of 05:42 use as well to affirm faith is that from the Dead Sea Scrolls 05:46 there were certain things that actually helped to 05:49 solidify and augment the inerrancy of Scripture 05:54 as far as the passages. 05:56 Like in the portion of the book of Daniel that they found, 05:59 they actually compared it to the Codex Alexandrinus 06:02 that was found back in the second and third centuries 06:05 written back at that time period, 06:07 and they recognized there had been no change. 06:09 So one can kind of look at the Dead Sea Scrolls 06:12 discovery and say, yeah, it could go in the side of 06:14 pessimism or lack of faith, or to affirm faith. 06:17 ~ I don't know if pessimism is the right world. 06:18 But just the Dead Sea Scrolls opened a whole vista of 06:24 what documents were around and what theology was present 06:28 that no one had much thought about till that point. 06:31 And I've read even recently some books on it. 06:33 I don't think they've even been addressed, because 06:36 it almost scares people, not people of true faith, 06:41 biblical faith, because you base it on that, 06:42 but it scares these investigators; 06:44 where it will lead them. 06:45 It's almost unthinkable. 06:47 And not least, the Gnostic Gospels. 06:51 But the distinction between Gnostic Gospels 06:54 and some of the more traditional writers, 06:58 it's not as clear as we might think. 07:01 Well you know, based on that I would say that 07:03 whether there's people that are, as one would say, 07:06 with no religious orientation, that believe fully in evolution, 07:11 but even that doesn't give all of the answers. 07:13 So just as ones religious perspective may not give 07:16 all of the answers, that's no reason to 07:19 reject one's faith outright. 07:21 ~ And this is what we would say on this whole network. 07:25 The role of faith is central. 07:28 I mean, you can't prove everything. 07:31 You have to have a faith that's based on certain logic, 07:34 but faith by definition, you jump off, you take... 07:37 And just living in a secular world, 07:41 you have to have certain faith. 07:42 I mean, the little kid in school, how does he know 07:45 Newton's law of gravity other than that things fall 07:48 and drop on his foot, or whatever. 07:49 But you're taking in faith someone that you trust, 07:52 that that's a knowledgeable person. 07:54 You take in faith that the sun will rise the next day. 07:57 An amazing amount of what we think is cut and dried 07:59 reality really exists on faith. 08:02 ~ Correct. 08:03 You know, coming back though to that aspect of 08:05 the late 1800's, the Catholic church in papal pronouncements 08:11 actually was condemning certain of the philosophical movements 08:14 that were beginning in Germany at the time 08:17 that led into the twentieth century, 08:19 more of the fuller development where eventually Peter, 08:23 one of the philosophers that I mentioned 08:25 who became a sociology of religion expert, 08:28 if one may say the term, or scholar, 08:30 was Peter Berger. 08:31 Now just for the sake of giving him full defense, in essence, 08:37 originally he was arguing in the book, The Sacred Canopy, 08:40 that societies would evolve to the point and become so 08:43 modernized that there would be no idea or concept of 08:47 God or religion whatsoever. 08:49 Purely secular. 08:50 - However, with the... ~ The "God is dead" era, right? 08:53 It was the further development of that. 08:56 Because in essence Nietzsche had the idea, "God is dead." 08:58 He wrote a lot about that in some of his later writings. 09:01 And then the further development of that into the 09:03 twentieth century with Peter Berger basically adopting, 09:06 "The Sacred Canopy," where he gives a very rationalistic 09:10 logical argumentation for how religions evolved. 09:15 In essence, his argument is that man created his religion 09:19 that we see displayed in different 09:20 cultures around the world. 09:22 But the point is that by the 1990's with the resurgence 09:26 of fundamentalist religions, that completely refuted 09:29 his theory, and so now he switched and he's admitted that 09:33 sociology of religion doesn't explain everything. 09:36 And actually he is somebody who does have 09:38 or adopts a position of faith at the current time 09:42 and argues that one should question one's faith, 09:46 but not fully reject it. 09:48 So he's done some bit of a turn around. 09:51 ~ Yeah, we've been through the grill, as a society in general; 09:55 disillusionment between the wars, then scientific 09:58 exploration, for years in the United States. 10:02 I heard people say, "Well we can get a man on the moon. 10:05 Surely we can do this." 10:06 It's like, everything is possible to human beings. 10:09 We're now understanding that everything is not possible. 10:12 You know, the universe is opening up before us; 10:14 we're just little creatures. 10:16 Even as our technical advance continues. 10:21 But relative to everything, it's not overwhelming. 10:23 So I think there's sort of an existential angst that's 10:29 come over the modern world. 10:30 And that's not good for religion. 10:33 But the Roman Catholic Church 10:36 is pursuing a two-prong view, I think. 10:38 They're hoping to just rally people because of their 10:43 historic role, and you know, "Don't ask questions, 10:45 just come with us." 10:46 And at the same time they're also encouraging 10:49 Bible study and examination of the Word. 10:52 But the Catholic church has never been that keen 10:55 or insistent upon verbal inspiration or the 11:00 accuracy of the Scripture. 11:02 Don't need it because the authority derives from 11:04 the church, not from the Scripture. 11:07 ~ But you know, the church, the role of the Catholic church 11:10 addressing the idea of secularism, from Vatican II 11:13 to the present time the church has adopted the perspective, 11:17 whether one would argue whether it's true or not, 11:20 about the idea of secularism being prevalent in countries 11:24 around the world as countries become more modernized. 11:28 But the church has adopted the viewpoint that secularism 11:30 is, in essence, the dominant giant that needs to be 11:33 conquered in society, and for that reason 11:36 has sought to close ranks with non-Catholics, 11:39 with other religious groups, even non-Christian groups, 11:41 pulling together to say religion has its place 11:44 in society as opposed to a completely 11:47 non-religious society. 11:49 And you know, we were talking about the Regensburg speech 11:53 where two of his three threats to a non-violent 11:57 Christianity was secularism. 11:58 I must admit, I don't even understand the 12:01 second and third points, why they would be a threat. 12:05 I've always focused on the first threat that he said 12:07 that I thought was just... 12:10 ...Reformation baiting. 12:12 Because he says that Christianity became non-violent 12:15 because of adopting Greek rationality. 12:22 To me, that's sort of paganism. 12:23 But anyhow. 12:25 And then he says the reformers, by their insistence 12:27 on sola scriptura, exposed Christianity to violence. 12:30 In other words, a jihadi like, you know, 12:33 "This is the Holy Book, you know. 12:35 I'll fight to the death before I change it." 12:39 But I don't understand the secularism. 12:41 Secularism is a counter-threat to all religion because 12:45 it just sucks the air out of the room for religion. 12:48 But I don't think it's an antagonist, per se. 12:51 No, in fact one of the things that I always like 12:54 to share with individuals that may tend to adopt more of a 12:58 secular mindset, or one could even say atheistic perspective, 13:02 is that even modern atheism in its truest sense 13:06 and understanding is dependent upon religion. 13:09 And I usually get a baffled look from secularists 13:12 and atheists when I say that. 13:14 I go on to explain, the English term, "atheist," 13:18 derives from the Greek, "atheteo," 13:20 which is not saying, it's not denying God. 13:23 It's just saying the negative of God. 13:25 The, "a," that precedes, "theteo," in Greek 13:29 language it means, the negative of. 13:31 So, "theteo," is the idea or the concept of God. 13:33 - That's where we get, "theos." ~ Questioner or doubter. 13:35 Yeah, so the atheist, the atheteo, 13:38 is really somebody that, in order to adopt their position 13:41 they must first acknowledge the existence of God 13:43 in order to be able to negate that. 13:46 You can't deny a negative, right? 13:47 Or you can't deny something that doesn't exist. 13:50 So secularists in that regard, and atheists in particular, 13:57 they can thank religionists for taking the first position. 14:00 ~ And Dawkins, I listen to a lot of his stuff. 14:04 He's the atheist, English atheist that trolls around. 14:08 And it's very curious, because he's very attracted 14:11 to the forms of religion. 14:13 Nice hymns, and even the morality of religion. 14:17 But he has issues with assertions of God 14:22 and the details of heavenly existence, and so on. 14:25 And you know, on a certain level that's understandable. 14:28 It's regrettable because if nothing else it doesn't 14:31 give people peace of mind. 14:33 They're between heaven and hell, literally. 14:37 And that's the sickness of our age, I think. 14:40 But this is the question that... 14:44 Well we need to have a break, I see. 14:45 We're just too far over our halfway point. 14:47 So stay with us, we'll be back in a few moments. |
Revised 2018-04-05