Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program bringing
you news, views, discussion
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on religious liberty events in
the U.S. and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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A magazine of well over
100 years history dealing with
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church-state issues and the
separation of church and state.
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And my guest is
Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook.
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Welcome back, you've
been on this program before.
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And you've written quite a few
articles for Liberty Magazine.
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So you're a true insider.
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And since your doctorate
is on church-state studies,
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let's hit the ground running
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by talking about secularism.
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It's been trendy of late,
in religious liberty circles
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at least, to see the
challenge to religious liberty
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as from a secular quarter.
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And I remember a few years ago
now, but it seems like yesterday
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to me, Pope Benedict,
when he was newly mentored,
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gave a speech at
Regensburg University
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where he laid an awful lot of
the ills troubling Christianity
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at the feet of secularism.
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~ Yes. - You remember that?
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- The Regensburg
speech? ~ Oh yes, yes.
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~ So where does
secularism figure into all this?
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Well the first thing, just kind
of oriented from that speech,
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right, from 1962
when Vatican II took place
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until the current
time, the perspective of the
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Catholic church globally is that
secularism is something that
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due to several
German philosophers like
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Emile Durkhiem, Max Weber,
and at one time Peter Berger...
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Now Peter Berger has switched.
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He use to argue that eventually
societies would evolve
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around the world until
they all become purely secular.
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Meaning, having no
religious orientation.
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But he's changed his viewpoint.
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I don't want to rain on your
parade, but this is my view.
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Do you think philosophers
determine the way the
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world thinks, or
the other way around?
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They reflect
what the world thinks.
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Well, they have had quite a
lot of influence in some, yeah.
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I mean like for
example Friedrich Nietzsche.
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You know, his
writings railing against God,
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and the, "God is dead,"
idea that ended up playing over
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into the following
century in the 1900's
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and that were
picked up and adopted by
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portions of Nazism.
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~ Yes, absolutely.
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And that's what popularized
Nietzsche more than just the
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intellectuals that
might have read him.
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- Another interesting...
- But I think whether...
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I'm not nay-saying
that, but I think the biggest
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sweep of history,
the explanation for our
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modern secularism, is
more easily found in the
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disillusionment that
followed the great war,
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and the killing off and the
seeming failure of religion,
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and the possibility,
which we've never gotten over
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under the nuclear threat,
the possibility that, you know,
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it's all going to blow up
in our face at any moment.
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So it's certainly, between
the wars it was, you know,
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"wine, women, and
song," the flappers,
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and the Berlin nightlife.
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I think that's where
this prevailing secularism
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hit western society.
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And it was popularized
by a number of philosophers
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who codified what was sort
of floating around in the...
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What's the word they used?
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...the... ...the...
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Hmm. ...the, the...
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There's a term now
online for the global mindset.
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~ Globalization?
Global community?
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~ No, I'll think about it later.
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...the... But anyhow.
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You know, most people
don't read philosophers.
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You know that.
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They have an influence
that percolates through.
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Just like laws and
people obeying them.
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Which comes first, the
desire to pass the laws
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or do the laws
create the behavior.
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Well, there
certainly is, one can say, some
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reason, ration,
to that argument.
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At the same time, though,
you know, I would kind of
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look at some
historical documents.
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The Catholic church
back in the late 1800's
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identified within
Christianity a movement among
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Protestant theologians that
was more from a Bible-centered
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bases of faith
moving to the idea
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of higher
criticism of the Bible.
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And that was part of what came
out of a Christian perspective.
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Christian
philosophy, you might say.
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But at the same time,
I believe that there were
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secular philosophers
that bought into that
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and contributed
to it, in essence,
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that developed more of
the idea of a secular idea.
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Ideas on higher
criticism, I think it came
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from increased
knowledge and learning.
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I don't think it
came from citizenism.
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It just came from knowledge.
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And most particularly,
because I'm barely old enough
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to remember it,
the Dead Sea Scrolls
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opened Pandora's box, and
it's never quite been closed.
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But people just
decided, stop talking about it.
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There are things that came
out of the Dead Sea Scrolls
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that are problematic to this day
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about the extent of the canon
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and what else
existed, and so on.
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~ Yeah, that is certainly true.
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But you know, the
thing that I would kind of
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use as well to affirm faith is
that from the Dead Sea Scrolls
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there were certain
things that actually helped to
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solidify and augment
the inerrancy of Scripture
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as far as the passages.
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Like in the portion of the
book of Daniel that they found,
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they actually compared
it to the Codex Alexandrinus
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that was found back in
the second and third centuries
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written back at
that time period,
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and they recognized
there had been no change.
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So one can kind of
look at the Dead Sea Scrolls
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discovery and say, yeah,
it could go in the side of
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pessimism or lack of
faith, or to affirm faith.
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~ I don't know if
pessimism is the right world.
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But just the Dead Sea
Scrolls opened a whole vista of
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what documents were around
and what theology was present
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that no one had much
thought about till that point.
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And I've read even
recently some books on it.
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I don't think they've
even been addressed, because
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it almost scares people,
not people of true faith,
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biblical faith,
because you base it on that,
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but it scares
these investigators;
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where it will lead them.
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It's almost unthinkable.
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And not least,
the Gnostic Gospels.
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But the distinction
between Gnostic Gospels
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and some of the
more traditional writers,
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it's not as clear
as we might think.
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Well you know, based
on that I would say that
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whether there's people
that are, as one would say,
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with no religious orientation,
that believe fully in evolution,
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but even that doesn't
give all of the answers.
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So just as ones religious
perspective may not give
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all of the
answers, that's no reason to
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reject one's faith outright.
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~ And this is what we
would say on this whole network.
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The role of faith is central.
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I mean, you
can't prove everything.
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You have to have a faith
that's based on certain logic,
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but faith by definition,
you jump off, you take...
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And just living
in a secular world,
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you have to have certain faith.
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I mean, the little kid
in school, how does he know
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Newton's law of gravity
other than that things fall
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and drop on his
foot, or whatever.
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But you're taking in
faith someone that you trust,
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that that's a
knowledgeable person.
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You take in faith that the
sun will rise the next day.
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An amazing amount of
what we think is cut and dried
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reality really exists on faith.
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~ Correct.
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You know, coming back
though to that aspect of
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the late 1800's, the Catholic
church in papal pronouncements
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actually was condemning certain
of the philosophical movements
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that were beginning
in Germany at the time
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that led into the
twentieth century,
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more of the fuller development
where eventually Peter,
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one of the
philosophers that I mentioned
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who became a
sociology of religion expert,
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if one may say
the term, or scholar,
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was Peter Berger.
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Now just for the sake of giving
him full defense, in essence,
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originally he was arguing
in the book, The Sacred Canopy,
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that societies would evolve
to the point and become so
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modernized that there
would be no idea or concept of
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God or religion whatsoever.
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Purely secular.
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- However, with the... ~
The "God is dead" era, right?
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It was the further
development of that.
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Because in essence Nietzsche
had the idea, "God is dead."
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He wrote a lot about that
in some of his later writings.
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And then the further
development of that into the
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twentieth century with
Peter Berger basically adopting,
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"The Sacred Canopy," where
he gives a very rationalistic
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logical argumentation
for how religions evolved.
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In essence, his argument is
that man created his religion
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that we see
displayed in different
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cultures around the world.
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But the point is that by
the 1990's with the resurgence
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of fundamentalist religions,
that completely refuted
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his theory, and so now he
switched and he's admitted that
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sociology of religion
doesn't explain everything.
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And actually he is
somebody who does have
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or adopts a position of
faith at the current time
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and argues that one
should question one's faith,
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but not fully reject it.
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So he's done some
bit of a turn around.
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~ Yeah, we've been through the
grill, as a society in general;
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disillusionment between
the wars, then scientific
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exploration, for
years in the United States.
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I heard people say, "Well
we can get a man on the moon.
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Surely we can do this."
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It's like, everything is
possible to human beings.
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We're now understanding
that everything is not possible.
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You know, the universe
is opening up before us;
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we're just little creatures.
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Even as our
technical advance continues.
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But relative to everything,
it's not overwhelming.
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So I think there's sort of
an existential angst that's
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come over the modern world.
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And that's not
good for religion.
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But the Roman Catholic Church
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is pursuing a
two-prong view, I think.
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They're hoping to just
rally people because of their
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historic role, and you
know, "Don't ask questions,
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just come with us."
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And at the same time
they're also encouraging
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Bible study and
examination of the Word.
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But the Catholic church
has never been that keen
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or insistent upon
verbal inspiration or the
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accuracy of the Scripture.
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Don't need it because
the authority derives from
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the church, not
from the Scripture.
00:11:04.96\00:11:06.39
~ But you know, the church,
the role of the Catholic church
00:11:07.23\00:11:10.10
addressing the idea of
secularism, from Vatican II
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to the present time the church
has adopted the perspective,
00:11:13.57\00:11:17.64
whether one would argue
whether it's true or not,
00:11:17.67\00:11:20.28
about the idea of secularism
being prevalent in countries
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around the world as countries
become more modernized.
00:11:24.15\00:11:27.15
But the church has adopted
the viewpoint that secularism
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is, in essence, the
dominant giant that needs to be
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conquered in
society, and for that reason
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has sought to close
ranks with non-Catholics,
00:11:36.32\00:11:39.19
with other religious groups,
even non-Christian groups,
00:11:39.23\00:11:41.26
pulling together to
say religion has its place
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in society as
opposed to a completely
00:11:44.63\00:11:47.34
non-religious society.
00:11:47.37\00:11:49.30
And you know, we were talking
about the Regensburg speech
00:11:49.34\00:11:53.84
where two of his three
threats to a non-violent
00:11:53.88\00:11:56.98
Christianity was secularism.
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I must admit, I
don't even understand the
00:11:58.48\00:12:01.18
second and third points,
why they would be a threat.
00:12:01.95\00:12:04.25
I've always focused on
the first threat that he said
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that I thought was just...
00:12:07.19\00:12:08.52
...Reformation baiting.
00:12:10.66\00:12:12.09
Because he says that
Christianity became non-violent
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because of
adopting Greek rationality.
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To me, that's sort of paganism.
00:12:22.30\00:12:23.81
But anyhow.
00:12:23.84\00:12:25.17
And then he says the
reformers, by their insistence
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on sola scriptura, exposed
Christianity to violence.
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In other words, a
jihadi like, you know,
00:12:30.91\00:12:33.55
"This is the
Holy Book, you know.
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I'll fight to the
death before I change it."
00:12:35.48\00:12:38.35
But I don't
understand the secularism.
00:12:39.59\00:12:41.39
Secularism is a counter-threat
to all religion because
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it just sucks the air
out of the room for religion.
00:12:45.09\00:12:48.40
But I don't think
it's an antagonist, per se.
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No, in fact one of the
things that I always like
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to share with individuals
that may tend to adopt more of a
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secular mindset, or one could
even say atheistic perspective,
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is that even modern
atheism in its truest sense
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and understanding is
dependent upon religion.
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And I usually get a
baffled look from secularists
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and atheists when I say that.
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I go on to explain, the
English term, "atheist,"
00:13:14.19\00:13:18.13
derives from the
Greek, "atheteo,"
00:13:18.16\00:13:20.20
which is not saying,
it's not denying God.
00:13:20.23\00:13:23.06
It's just saying
the negative of God.
00:13:23.10\00:13:25.07
The, "a," that
precedes, "theteo," in Greek
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language it
means, the negative of.
00:13:29.14\00:13:30.91
So, "theteo," is the
idea or the concept of God.
00:13:31.27\00:13:33.78
- That's where we get, "theos."
~ Questioner or doubter.
00:13:33.81\00:13:35.54
Yeah, so the
atheist, the atheteo,
00:13:35.58\00:13:38.11
is really somebody that, in
order to adopt their position
00:13:38.15\00:13:41.18
they must first
acknowledge the existence of God
00:13:41.22\00:13:43.32
in order to be
able to negate that.
00:13:43.35\00:13:45.85
You can't deny
a negative, right?
00:13:46.22\00:13:47.56
Or you can't deny
something that doesn't exist.
00:13:47.59\00:13:49.66
So secularists in that regard,
and atheists in particular,
00:13:50.66\00:13:55.83
they can thank religionists
for taking the first position.
00:13:57.00\00:14:00.40
~ And Dawkins, I
listen to a lot of his stuff.
00:14:00.44\00:14:03.77
He's the atheist, English
atheist that trolls around.
00:14:04.67\00:14:08.48
And it's very curious,
because he's very attracted
00:14:08.78\00:14:11.05
to the forms of religion.
00:14:11.08\00:14:12.88
Nice hymns, and even
the morality of religion.
00:14:13.31\00:14:16.99
But he has issues
with assertions of God
00:14:17.42\00:14:22.26
and the details of
heavenly existence, and so on.
00:14:22.29\00:14:24.96
And you know, on a certain
level that's understandable.
00:14:25.49\00:14:28.93
It's regrettable because
if nothing else it doesn't
00:14:28.96\00:14:31.87
give people peace of mind.
00:14:31.90\00:14:33.23
They're between
heaven and hell, literally.
00:14:33.27\00:14:36.57
And that's the
sickness of our age, I think.
00:14:37.21\00:14:40.28
But this is the question that...
00:14:40.71\00:14:42.81
Well we need to
have a break, I see.
00:14:44.01\00:14:45.38
We're just too far
over our halfway point.
00:14:45.41\00:14:47.55
So stay with us, we'll
be back in a few moments.
00:14:47.58\00:14:49.82