Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000382B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break, continuing discussion with guest, Ed Cook, 00:10 Dr. Ed Cook, on the Jesuits generally, but we were 00:15 getting into education and how that's played out 00:17 in the United States with the separation of church and state. 00:20 It's amazing that the Roman Catholic, and particularly 00:25 Jesuit Roman Catholic institutions have benefited 00:27 so greatly from state aid. 00:29 And of course even our own church, Seventh-day Adventist 00:32 institutions take quite a bit of state aid 00:34 with criteria that satisfies them. 00:37 But I'm of the mind, and this program has consistently 00:41 pointed out, that there's a danger in taking state aid. 00:44 It's a danger to the state and a danger to the church. 00:47 Well there are, yes, certainly you know, I guess one would say, 00:51 Christian scholars that have recognized that whenever 00:55 a religious entity receives support other than from its 00:58 own members, it is actually weakening itself in the sense 01:02 that it's open to compromise. 01:04 The state, whenever it ends up doing that, 01:06 then it shows preference for one particular religious group 01:09 as opposed to another. 01:10 But there's another sea that I think it creates. 01:13 It co-ops the church to the ends of the state. 01:21 Now I don't think that's necessarily an unthinkable 01:25 situation for the Jesuit Order and their idea of education. 01:30 Because they'll be happy to sort of morph 01:32 into the aims of the state. 01:33 But we shouldn't encourage that. 01:36 Well one of the things, you know, notably 01:38 one can say about the Jesuits, not only with their educational 01:42 mission focus throughout their history of existence, 01:44 but it is true that they do their best to, whatever the 01:48 prevailing conditions are in society, in the given culture 01:51 or country that they're trying to reach, they will adapt 01:55 their methods, and even the idea of entertaining 01:59 questions about Catholic views and Catholic doctrinal teachings 02:04 and at the same time holding onto those. 02:07 So it's kind of more along the lines, I would say 02:09 at least in the American context, the Jesuit universities 02:12 encourage inquiry, discussion, debate, and ultimately 02:17 try to guide the students to understanding what they feel 02:21 is the correct viewpoint from a Catholic perspective. 02:24 That's fine, as an intellectual model, 02:27 has a lot to recommend it. 02:30 But when you're talking about doctrinal purity or 02:33 aims of a religious institution, it can get muddy. 02:37 And I'll repeat again, on religious liberty levels, 02:41 who are we to criticize the Roman Catholics, the Jesuits 02:43 suborder, or Muslims, or whatever? 02:46 I mean, we can comment on it, but we all have the right 02:49 to exist under the freedom of religion. 02:52 And we shouldn't critique. 02:54 Where I get particularly troubled, though, by the 02:58 Roman Catholic Church historically and presently 03:01 is that it doesn't really, in practice and historically 03:06 it's obvious, it not only not accepts the separation 03:09 of church and state, it wants privileged position, 03:14 you know, the shoulder position to power. 03:18 And you know, that statement that, "power corrupts, 03:21 and absolute power corrupts absolutely," 03:23 applies to churches as well as anyone else. 03:25 And it's not good. 03:27 And so the U.S. has many wrongs. 03:31 I've lived most of my life in the U.S., 03:32 I'm hardly against the U.S. 03:34 I love history, though. 03:36 And you've got to face it, if you look at the history 03:38 of the U.S., it's a spotty record. 03:40 Not quite up to the myths that we've created. 03:44 But there's one thing that you can't take away from the U.S. 03:46 The high aspirations of the Constitution. 03:50 And I think a life-saving provision in the First Amendment 03:53 that sort of puts a cleaver between church and state. 03:56 It does it in an obtuse sort of a way. 03:59 But the intention was very clear at the time. 04:02 And I don't like that protection being taken away 04:08 by a religious entity that's sort of church/state. 04:13 You know, I mean, it's hard to pin down. 04:14 ~ It has two side to it. - Yes. 04:16 So I think you're referring to the idea that the 04:19 Catholic church identifies itself not only as a 04:21 religious institution, but also that it has 04:24 the political dimension to it. 04:26 In essence, you know, the pope having that jurisdiction 04:30 over the church, but also being a voice for the church 04:33 in the political spectrum. 04:35 ~ I don't want to make enemies, and I've had an Imam 04:38 on this program and we had a great program, 04:42 but that's also what troubles me about Islam. 04:44 For a slightly different dynamic, but Islam at root 04:47 does not accept the separation of church and state. 04:50 ~ Correct. 04:51 And so, it's not that Muslims can't live 04:55 happily in the United States. 04:56 That's not for me to say. 04:58 I mean, we know that it's true anyhow. 05:00 But structurally, you've got an inbuilt problem 05:03 when you try to integrate Islam with the American governmental 05:06 and societal system. 05:08 There's an inevitable conflict that the reconciliation 05:15 might be destructive of the Constitution. 05:17 So it's the same thing with Catholicism. 05:19 That's my argument. 05:20 For both religions, they have the underlying philosophical 05:24 viewpoint of absolutism. 05:25 And so whenever you have that, there can be no compromise 05:29 with another entity that would seek to equal or supersede 05:33 one's own authority. 05:34 ~ Yeah, but with Islam it's even more clearly stated. 05:39 The Catholic has a historical claim for dominance, and so on, 05:43 and a willingness to use political power 05:47 to support its edicts. 05:48 But it's in the Koran that the government, 05:52 there is no secular government. 05:55 The government must be religious. 05:58 There really is no distinction between the civil government 06:01 and religious life; it's all one and the same. 06:04 You know, in some of the Catholic pronouncements on 06:07 the ordering of political society, they actually, 06:11 especially back during the 1920's to the 1940's, 06:13 they did make overt statements to that effect. 06:17 In essence, that society should be religious in nature 06:21 and it should be oriented toward the aims of 06:24 the mission of the church. 06:25 That's why in many of the South American countries 06:28 for many decades they had Catholic rulers only. 06:31 In the constitution it stated that. 06:34 This is a little bit off message, but it reminds me 06:38 that a few years ago I heard Cardinal Dolan, 06:41 who I really appreciate, I like his style. 06:42 He's a hail fellow well met. 06:44 I don't know that I like anyone drinking beer, 06:47 but he's sort of the beer-swilling New Yorker style. 06:50 You know, happy-go-lucky. 06:51 And he got up before a Catholic audience, 06:53 and I think something occurred to him that troubled him. 06:57 So he stopped his presentation and he said, 06:59 "You know, Catholics would not have once spoken 07:01 this way about religious liberty. 07:03 We once held that error has no rights." 07:08 That's just antithetical to democratic liberalism. 07:12 And they've moderated it a little bit, but at the 07:14 end of the day that is their root position, I think. 07:19 Yes, I would say that, you know, for Catholics, 07:22 especially after Vatican II back in 1962, 07:26 from that time onward they have adopted the document, 07:29 Dignitatis Humanae, which does take a different position 07:33 than prior to 1962. 07:36 Prior to 1962 it was, error had no rights. 07:38 Now from 1962 onward, the Catholic church, 07:41 based on Dignitatis Humanae, 07:43 does focus on the rights of the individual. 07:47 At least from a political perspective. 07:49 And that's something that maybe in a future presentation 07:52 we can explore a little bit further, 07:54 dealing with those distinctions in that document. 08:00 A few years ago I visited Phnom Penh, Cambodia 08:04 and saw the death camps and the effects of the Khmer Rouge 08:08 driving one million people out of that capital city 08:11 into the countryside for re-education. 08:16 That was a dark chapter in that poor 08:18 benighted country's history. 08:21 It was a clear illustration that you cannot persuade people 08:26 against their will. 08:28 What we know in the west and in this modern era 08:31 is that education where people are voluntarily exposed 08:36 to knowledge, where their minds are engaged, 08:40 where they see the principle at play, are indeed 08:43 the ways to change behavior. 08:45 Christianity has advanced traditionally through education 08:50 and training in biblical principles. 08:52 The Jesuits have used it to their narrow sectarian purposes. 08:57 The Seventh-day Adventist Church that I'm a member of 09:00 successfully maintains a worldwide educational program. 09:05 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-03-15