Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break, continuing
discussion with guest, Ed Cook,
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Dr. Ed Cook, on the
Jesuits generally, but we were
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getting into education
and how that's played out
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in the United States with the
separation of church and state.
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It's amazing that the
Roman Catholic, and particularly
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Jesuit Roman Catholic
institutions have benefited
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so greatly from state aid.
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And of course even our own
church, Seventh-day Adventist
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institutions take
quite a bit of state aid
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with criteria
that satisfies them.
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But I'm of the mind, and
this program has consistently
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pointed out, that there's
a danger in taking state aid.
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It's a danger to the state
and a danger to the church.
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Well there are, yes, certainly
you know, I guess one would say,
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Christian scholars that
have recognized that whenever
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a religious entity receives
support other than from its
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own members, it is actually
weakening itself in the sense
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that it's open to compromise.
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The state, whenever
it ends up doing that,
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then it shows preference for
one particular religious group
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as opposed to another.
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But there's another sea
that I think it creates.
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It co-ops the church
to the ends of the state.
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Now I don't think that's
necessarily an unthinkable
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situation for the Jesuit Order
and their idea of education.
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Because they'll be
happy to sort of morph
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into the aims of the state.
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But we shouldn't encourage that.
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Well one of the
things, you know, notably
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one can say about the Jesuits,
not only with their educational
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mission focus throughout
their history of existence,
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but it is true that they
do their best to, whatever the
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prevailing conditions are in
society, in the given culture
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or country that they're
trying to reach, they will adapt
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their methods, and even
the idea of entertaining
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questions about Catholic views
and Catholic doctrinal teachings
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and at the same
time holding onto those.
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So it's kind of more
along the lines, I would say
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at least in the American
context, the Jesuit universities
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encourage inquiry, discussion,
debate, and ultimately
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try to guide the students
to understanding what they feel
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is the correct viewpoint
from a Catholic perspective.
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That's fine, as an
intellectual model,
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has a lot to recommend it.
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But when you're talking
about doctrinal purity or
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aims of a religious
institution, it can get muddy.
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And I'll repeat again,
on religious liberty levels,
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who are we to criticize the
Roman Catholics, the Jesuits
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suborder, or
Muslims, or whatever?
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I mean, we can comment on
it, but we all have the right
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to exist under the
freedom of religion.
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And we shouldn't critique.
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Where I get particularly
troubled, though, by the
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Roman Catholic Church
historically and presently
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is that it doesn't really,
in practice and historically
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it's obvious, it not only
not accepts the separation
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of church and state, it
wants privileged position,
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you know, the
shoulder position to power.
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And you know, that
statement that, "power corrupts,
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and absolute power
corrupts absolutely,"
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applies to churches
as well as anyone else.
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And it's not good.
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And so the U.S. has many wrongs.
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I've lived most of
my life in the U.S.,
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I'm hardly against the U.S.
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I love history, though.
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And you've got to face
it, if you look at the history
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of the U.S.,
it's a spotty record.
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Not quite up to the
myths that we've created.
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But there's one thing that you
can't take away from the U.S.
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The high
aspirations of the Constitution.
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And I think a life-saving
provision in the First Amendment
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that sort of puts a cleaver
between church and state.
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It does it in an
obtuse sort of a way.
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But the intention was
very clear at the time.
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And I don't like that
protection being taken away
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by a religious entity
that's sort of church/state.
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You know, I mean,
it's hard to pin down.
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~ It has two side to it. - Yes.
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So I think you're
referring to the idea that the
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Catholic church
identifies itself not only as a
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religious institution,
but also that it has
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the political dimension to it.
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In essence, you know, the
pope having that jurisdiction
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over the church, but also
being a voice for the church
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in the political spectrum.
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~ I don't want to make
enemies, and I've had an Imam
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on this program and
we had a great program,
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but that's also what
troubles me about Islam.
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For a slightly different
dynamic, but Islam at root
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does not accept the
separation of church and state.
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~ Correct.
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And so, it's not
that Muslims can't live
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happily in the United States.
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That's not for me to say.
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I mean, we know
that it's true anyhow.
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But structurally,
you've got an inbuilt problem
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when you try to integrate Islam
with the American governmental
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and societal system.
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There's an inevitable
conflict that the reconciliation
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might be
destructive of the Constitution.
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So it's the same
thing with Catholicism.
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That's my argument.
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For both religions, they have
the underlying philosophical
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viewpoint of absolutism.
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And so whenever you have
that, there can be no compromise
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with another entity that
would seek to equal or supersede
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one's own authority.
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~ Yeah, but with Islam
it's even more clearly stated.
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The Catholic has a historical
claim for dominance, and so on,
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and a willingness
to use political power
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to support its edicts.
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But it's in the
Koran that the government,
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there is no secular government.
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The government
must be religious.
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There really is no distinction
between the civil government
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and religious life;
it's all one and the same.
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You know, in some of the
Catholic pronouncements on
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the ordering of political
society, they actually,
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especially back during
the 1920's to the 1940's,
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they did make overt
statements to that effect.
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In essence, that society
should be religious in nature
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and it should be
oriented toward the aims of
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the mission of the church.
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That's why in many of
the South American countries
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for many decades they
had Catholic rulers only.
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In the
constitution it stated that.
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This is a little bit off
message, but it reminds me
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that a few years ago
I heard Cardinal Dolan,
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who I really
appreciate, I like his style.
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He's a hail fellow well met.
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I don't know that I
like anyone drinking beer,
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but he's sort of the
beer-swilling New Yorker style.
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You know, happy-go-lucky.
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And he got up
before a Catholic audience,
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and I think something occurred
to him that troubled him.
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So he stopped his
presentation and he said,
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"You know, Catholics
would not have once spoken
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this way about
religious liberty.
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We once held that
error has no rights."
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That's just antithetical
to democratic liberalism.
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And they've moderated
it a little bit, but at the
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end of the day that is
their root position, I think.
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Yes, I would say that,
you know, for Catholics,
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especially after
Vatican II back in 1962,
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from that time onward
they have adopted the document,
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Dignitatis Humanae, which
does take a different position
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than prior to 1962.
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Prior to 1962 it
was, error had no rights.
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Now from 1962
onward, the Catholic church,
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based on Dignitatis Humanae,
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does focus on the
rights of the individual.
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At least from a
political perspective.
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And that's something that
maybe in a future presentation
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we can explore a
little bit further,
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dealing with those
distinctions in that document.
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A few years ago I
visited Phnom Penh, Cambodia
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and saw the death camps and
the effects of the Khmer Rouge
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driving one million
people out of that capital city
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into the
countryside for re-education.
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That was a dark
chapter in that poor
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benighted country's history.
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It was a clear illustration
that you cannot persuade people
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against their will.
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What we know in the
west and in this modern era
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is that education where
people are voluntarily exposed
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to knowledge, where
their minds are engaged,
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where they see the
principle at play, are indeed
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the ways to change behavior.
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Christianity has advanced
traditionally through education
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and training in
biblical principles.
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The Jesuits have used it to
their narrow sectarian purposes.
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The Seventh-day Adventist
Church that I'm a member of
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successfully maintains a
worldwide educational program.
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For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
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