Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:25.82\00:00:27.39
This is your program bringing
you up-to-date news, views,
00:00:27.42\00:00:30.89
discussion, and insights
on religious liberty events
00:00:30.93\00:00:34.06
in the U.S.
certainly, but around the world.
00:00:34.43\00:00:36.53
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:00:36.87\00:00:39.90
And my guest on this
program is Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook,
00:00:40.07\00:00:43.77
author, sometimes
for Liberty Magazine,
00:00:44.71\00:00:47.11
minister of religion,
but your doctorate is in
00:00:47.54\00:00:49.94
church-state studies.
00:00:49.98\00:00:51.31
So you're on the right program
here, because that's our thing.
00:00:51.35\00:00:57.32
In a previous
program we had spoken about
00:00:57.35\00:01:01.29
the Jesuit Order
within Roman Catholicism
00:01:02.12\00:01:04.43
and its origins
and connection to the,
00:01:04.46\00:01:06.59
not so much to the Reformation,
but to the Counter-Reformation.
00:01:06.90\00:01:09.66
But I think while there are one
billion Roman Catholics, right,
00:01:11.23\00:01:15.37
in the world
today, give or take...
00:01:15.64\00:01:17.47
Although, a bit like Islam,
you're born a Roman Catholic.
00:01:17.81\00:01:22.84
You may not go to
confession or anything...
00:01:22.88\00:01:25.25
In fact, they don't have
confession in the old sense
00:01:25.95\00:01:27.98
in most places.
00:01:28.02\00:01:29.35
You may not go
to mass very often,
00:01:29.38\00:01:31.35
but you are a
Catholic, born a Catholic.
00:01:31.39\00:01:33.19
So I'm not sure that
one billion, when you really
00:01:33.22\00:01:37.99
get down to the nub, how
many are actively involved.
00:01:38.56\00:01:41.83
But there's an
adherence normally of a billion.
00:01:41.86\00:01:45.33
They would know
who Jesuits are, right?
00:01:46.10\00:01:48.54
~ Sure.
00:01:48.57\00:01:49.90
But I think in recent years with
the explosion of global news
00:01:49.94\00:01:52.84
and so on, and the
telegenic Pope Francis,
00:01:52.87\00:01:57.08
a Jesuit, I think the people
sort of pricked up their ears,
00:01:57.71\00:02:00.92
"Who are the Jesuits?"
00:02:00.95\00:02:02.28
~ Well actually, there
were a number of articles
00:02:02.32\00:02:03.89
that came out; one
by Huffington Post,
00:02:03.92\00:02:05.72
another by The Daily
Beast, another one by TIME,
00:02:05.75\00:02:08.99
that dealt with that specific
issue that he was the first
00:02:09.19\00:02:12.09
Jesuit to be
elected as the pope.
00:02:12.13\00:02:13.90
And that's got
to be significant,
00:02:13.93\00:02:15.26
because Jesuits were the
foot soldiers of the papacy.
00:02:15.30\00:02:18.73
But at different
times they've even been
00:02:19.43\00:02:20.90
looked upon with suspicion.
00:02:20.94\00:02:22.30
~ And even banned
at one point. - Right.
00:02:23.07\00:02:24.97
And in the 70's, Pope
John Paul II had a big run in
00:02:25.01\00:02:28.24
with them and was
ready to dissolve the Order.
00:02:28.28\00:02:32.45
But they've been brought
to heal, and I think with
00:02:32.65\00:02:35.25
a Jesuit pope I think
their influence is very high.
00:02:35.88\00:02:39.69
It must be.
00:02:39.72\00:02:41.06
Now you and I are
Seventh-day Adventists.
00:02:41.92\00:02:43.56
In our Adventist community
there are some people that
00:02:43.76\00:02:47.33
are buzzing around with
all sorts of conspiracies
00:02:47.36\00:02:49.56
and all the rest, and
I'm constantly coming across
00:02:49.60\00:02:52.33
people claiming that
Islam was begun by the Jesuits.
00:02:52.37\00:02:55.77
And what else would they say?
00:02:56.40\00:03:01.64
Oh, that the Illuminati
and the whole Masonic Order
00:03:01.68\00:03:06.48
was begun by the Jesuits.
00:03:06.51\00:03:07.98
Could this be true?
00:03:08.38\00:03:09.95
From what you know of history.
00:03:10.72\00:03:12.05
From what, you know, everything,
all of the historical documents
00:03:12.09\00:03:15.26
by the Jesuit Order
itself and the Catholic Church,
00:03:15.89\00:03:18.66
as well as other non-Catholics
that are historians that have,
00:03:18.69\00:03:22.56
and from a broad perspective
of educational backgrounds,
00:03:22.60\00:03:25.67
I would say the
definitive answer is, no.
00:03:25.87\00:03:28.07
~ Right, I wanted you to say it.
00:03:28.10\00:03:29.44
Jesuits have not
started any of these.
00:03:29.47\00:03:31.41
And if I had a Muslim
Imam, he'd be babbling
00:03:31.44\00:03:34.44
in horror at the idea.
00:03:34.84\00:03:36.91
There's no historical evidence.
00:03:36.95\00:03:38.35
In fact, there
isn't any evidence.
00:03:38.38\00:03:40.18
There's
evidence to the contrary.
00:03:40.22\00:03:41.55
~ Correct.
00:03:41.58\00:03:42.92
But perhaps it says something
for the perceived power
00:03:42.95\00:03:45.89
and influence of the
Jesuit Order through the ages
00:03:45.92\00:03:48.26
that this claim
can even be made.
00:03:48.52\00:03:50.26
~ In fact, one thing,
just commenting on that
00:03:50.56\00:03:52.49
I would mention from a
historical perspective.
00:03:52.53\00:03:54.63
You know, the Jesuits, as we
mentioned in a previous segment,
00:03:55.10\00:03:57.60
they started in 1534, were
officially recognized in 1540,
00:03:58.07\00:04:02.74
and had grown up to a
thousand members by 1556.
00:04:02.77\00:04:05.84
By 1615, they had
reached 13,000 male priests
00:04:05.87\00:04:10.58
that were part of the Order.
00:04:10.61\00:04:11.95
Now one of the things
that, during that period of the
00:04:11.98\00:04:14.88
17th century from roughly
1600 to 1685 or 1690, they were
00:04:14.92\00:04:21.42
very instrumental in the
Catholic Counter-Reformation.
00:04:21.46\00:04:25.09
And many of the countries
that had become Protestant,
00:04:25.19\00:04:27.66
formerly Catholic
that had become Protestant,
00:04:27.70\00:04:29.76
now they converted
back again to Catholicism.
00:04:29.86\00:04:32.40
But the thing I was
going to mention about that
00:04:32.83\00:04:34.37
is that the term,
"Jesuit," is something that
00:04:34.40\00:04:37.71
in the hearts of Protestants
during that era, it did strike
00:04:37.74\00:04:41.31
a note of fear
because they recognized that
00:04:41.34\00:04:44.05
Jesuits were a part of
the extension of the church,
00:04:44.08\00:04:46.88
part of the
inquisitorial process,
00:04:47.28\00:04:49.18
and also very
learned and astute men.
00:04:49.22\00:04:52.79
And also, I don't have a
copy of it here, but there...
00:04:52.82\00:04:58.73
How can I characterize it?
00:05:00.00\00:05:01.33
Basically what they
swore to, you know, their...
00:05:01.36\00:05:04.10
~ Oath of allegiance.
- Oath of allegiance.
00:05:04.40\00:05:06.33
It's rather blood curdling,
and it's taking what Paul said
00:05:06.53\00:05:10.24
and enlarging it in
ways that I don't think
00:05:10.27\00:05:12.64
most Christians would imagine.
00:05:12.67\00:05:14.01
You know Paul says, "I determine
to be all things to all people."
00:05:14.04\00:05:16.34
I don't think Paul
meant anything beyond not
00:05:17.48\00:05:20.22
challenging people, but
suiting Christ to the occasions
00:05:20.85\00:05:25.05
and capitalizing on everything.
00:05:25.09\00:05:26.52
But you know, the Jesuits at
different times have masqueraded
00:05:26.55\00:05:30.43
as other...to get
into other belief systems
00:05:30.46\00:05:33.96
and get them
from the inside out.
00:05:34.00\00:05:36.67
And I think that's perhaps why
it's plausible to certain people
00:05:38.03\00:05:42.17
that they might have begun
Islam, that they might have
00:05:42.20\00:05:45.14
been within the Knights
Templar Orders, or whatever.
00:05:45.71\00:05:51.61
It's part of the
fact, the history, that the
00:05:52.58\00:05:54.48
Roman Catholic Church
has persecuted Masonry.
00:05:54.52\00:05:58.05
It has seen it
correctly as a competitor.
00:05:58.35\00:06:02.56
So the idea that
the Jesuits would have
00:06:02.72\00:06:04.16
started it is
just nonsense to me.
00:06:04.19\00:06:05.96
In the late 1700's it was
Pope Leo that actually wrote
00:06:05.99\00:06:09.56
several dogmatic statements,
declarations of the church,
00:06:09.83\00:06:14.30
denouncing any kind
of secret societies,
00:06:14.37\00:06:16.94
as they were
referred to back then.
00:06:16.97\00:06:18.51
But I know on one
occasion at least, a Jesuit
00:06:18.54\00:06:21.71
made huge inroads
into Protestant thinking,
00:06:22.14\00:06:24.95
and something that we're
bearing with in the U.S. now.
00:06:24.98\00:06:27.62
Does the name Ribera
mean anything to you?
00:06:28.18\00:06:30.45
~ Yes. - Tell me.
00:06:30.49\00:06:32.52
Well, you know,
he's an individual that
00:06:32.62\00:06:35.76
had been a Catholic Priest
and ended up converting out
00:06:36.52\00:06:41.96
and wrote quite a lot
about the Order itself
00:06:42.00\00:06:45.07
and the inroads
that the Catholic Church,
00:06:45.10\00:06:48.14
through the Society of Jesus,
has attempted to do in trying to
00:06:48.17\00:06:51.24
penetrate Protestantism.
00:06:51.27\00:06:52.87
Well no, I think you're
thinking of another name.
00:06:53.31\00:06:56.31
But it was a Jesuit
priest, I'm trying to remember
00:06:56.41\00:06:58.78
his first name, Ribera,
that came up with a method of
00:06:58.81\00:07:04.42
interpreting
apocalyptic prophecies.
00:07:04.45\00:07:06.76
That conveniently re-wrote
things to the extent so that
00:07:07.46\00:07:13.80
as the Protestants under
Martin Luther were identifying
00:07:13.83\00:07:16.30
Rome as antichrist and so on,
that all of that disappeared.
00:07:16.33\00:07:19.57
Because you're looking back,
00:07:19.60\00:07:20.94
and it's
dispensationalism, and so on.
00:07:21.97\00:07:24.17
And there's no question that
a Jesuit attempt to denature
00:07:24.21\00:07:29.11
the apocalyptic
aspects of Protestantism
00:07:29.14\00:07:32.61
has led directly to what we
have in the United States today
00:07:32.71\00:07:36.28
where
evangelical Christianity...
00:07:36.32\00:07:38.09
~ Dispensationalism. - Yeah.
00:07:38.12\00:07:39.49
...are looking for something
quite literal to take place
00:07:39.52\00:07:42.99
in the Middle East rather than
perhaps spiritual developments
00:07:43.02\00:07:48.66
within, as Ellen
White an Adventist writer
00:07:48.70\00:07:51.97
use to say, Christendom.
00:07:52.00\00:07:53.34
There's actually two
positions that those priests,
00:07:53.50\00:07:57.11
those Jesuit priests, had
developed regarding prophecy.
00:07:57.14\00:07:59.87
One is almost a
purely futuristic perspective
00:08:00.08\00:08:03.58
where they move all of the
prophecies to future events.
00:08:03.61\00:08:07.18
And then the other
one is dealing with,
00:08:07.28\00:08:08.68
it's all relegated to the past.
00:08:08.72\00:08:10.59
It's happened in past history.
00:08:10.62\00:08:12.59
~ Problematic
principle, as they would say.
00:08:12.62\00:08:14.36
So yeah, but the whole
point of it was diversion.
00:08:14.39\00:08:17.43
To take away from...
00:08:17.53\00:08:18.86
You know, people have
forgotten Martin Luther,
00:08:18.99\00:08:21.00
I think, to a large degree.
00:08:21.26\00:08:22.70
They think that it was
all justification by faith,
00:08:23.16\00:08:26.97
and Rome sort of
squashed him because of that.
00:08:27.00\00:08:29.97
I read, re-read, the
95 Theses the other day.
00:08:30.01\00:08:32.87
And it was quite illuminating.
00:08:33.58\00:08:34.91
I'd read them years ago,
but I hadn't looked at them
00:08:34.94\00:08:37.38
sort of this dispassionately.
00:08:37.41\00:08:39.28
And they're not
really 95 discrete points.
00:08:39.71\00:08:42.78
They're 95
variations on a theme.
00:08:42.82\00:08:44.69
And the theme is
the pope and the church,
00:08:44.72\00:08:48.02
medieval church
that he represented,
00:08:48.22\00:08:50.26
Martin Luther felt had
no authority and had usurped
00:08:50.66\00:08:54.56
any limited
authority and carried forward
00:08:54.60\00:08:57.70
its edicts and
doctrines, and so on.
00:08:57.90\00:08:59.53
So it was all a
matter of authority.
00:08:59.57\00:09:01.57
Dealing with papal
primacy, in essence that's the
00:09:02.07\00:09:05.97
term that Catholics
would use in recognition of
00:09:06.01\00:09:09.04
the role of what they
call the primacy of Peter,
00:09:09.08\00:09:14.52
from Peter down to
whatever current pope is ruling.
00:09:14.55\00:09:17.25
And so in line with that,
he saw biblical prophecies...
00:09:17.29\00:09:21.39
...you know, they're in
code, but they suggest that a
00:09:23.89\00:09:27.10
religious power at the end
of time will seek to change
00:09:27.13\00:09:30.03
times and seasons, and
speak haughtily, and so on.
00:09:30.07\00:09:34.14
~ You know, something
that I think is interesting
00:09:34.17\00:09:35.80
and a very important point is
that, you're correct in stating,
00:09:35.84\00:09:39.04
that Luther in his study
of Scripture reached a point,
00:09:39.07\00:09:42.61
after the Protestant
Reformation had begun in 1517,
00:09:42.81\00:09:45.81
he reached a point in
his study of Scripture
00:09:46.15\00:09:48.05
where he identified the
pope as the, in essence,
00:09:48.08\00:09:52.19
this beast power;
in essence referring to
00:09:52.22\00:09:55.12
the pope as the antichrist.
00:09:55.16\00:09:56.73
But the idea of the papal
institution being the antichrist
00:09:56.93\00:10:01.16
was not actually
original to Luther.
00:10:01.20\00:10:03.47
~ No, no. Certainly not.
00:10:03.50\00:10:05.00
Because since the 1300's
there were some of the other
00:10:05.03\00:10:07.24
Orders within the Catholic
Church, the Franciscans,
00:10:07.27\00:10:09.97
had questioned that and
they actually applied the term,
00:10:10.01\00:10:12.87
the antichrist, to
the papal positions.
00:10:12.97\00:10:16.04
~ Absolutely. Oh no.
00:10:16.08\00:10:17.41
- No, but I simply mention
that because from a Catholic
00:10:17.45\00:10:19.68
perspective,
that's within Catholicism.
00:10:19.71\00:10:21.58
- King Solomon says there's
nothing new under the sun.
00:10:21.62\00:10:23.28
But Martin Luther made it almost
to a fault the feature of his
00:10:23.72\00:10:29.96
resistance in some
of the cartoons and even
00:10:31.03\00:10:34.46
pamphlets he wrote to
make you cringe today.
00:10:34.50\00:10:37.03
Not so much that they
were theologically wrong, but
00:10:37.60\00:10:39.93
they are very ill
advised graphics, in my view.
00:10:39.97\00:10:44.67
But that was very
much what Luther was about.
00:10:44.77\00:10:47.74
And so the Jesuits, I think,
were doing a very necessary job,
00:10:48.14\00:10:52.78
and they did it very
well, to turn this apocalyptic
00:10:52.81\00:10:56.05
interest in the Bible
in two directions away.
00:10:56.15\00:10:59.35
~ Correct.
00:10:59.85\00:11:01.19
And they've
been very successful.
00:11:01.22\00:11:02.56
And as you
mentioned, those viewpoints
00:11:02.92\00:11:05.56
have led in later centuries
to the development of a
00:11:05.76\00:11:08.23
particular line of
theological interpretation
00:11:08.26\00:11:11.47
of prophesy, part of that being
the aspect of dispensationalism.
00:11:11.67\00:11:15.97
So where do you think the
Jesuit Order is heading today?
00:11:16.64\00:11:20.51
From your analysis.
00:11:20.88\00:11:22.21
Because you're... I
mean, I read a lot of it.
00:11:22.24\00:11:23.95
But I imagine you read even
more of the internal documents
00:11:23.98\00:11:26.55
of the Roman Catholic Church.
00:11:26.58\00:11:28.05
Well for the Jesuits of today,
they recognize that even though
00:11:28.35\00:11:33.56
part of their, I would
say their primary focus
00:11:33.59\00:11:36.29
is on educational effort.
00:11:36.32\00:11:37.93
You know, that's always
been an earmark of their Order.
00:11:37.96\00:11:40.56
And they've been
very successful at it.
00:11:40.86\00:11:42.50
You know, just for example,
a couple of institutions...
00:11:42.53\00:11:45.03
~ And it's not a bad thing.
00:11:45.07\00:11:46.40
I mean, when Jesuitism
began, educational levels
00:11:46.43\00:11:53.68
were not very high in Europe.
00:11:53.71\00:11:55.04
And in a way, they
had the beast by the tail,
00:11:55.64\00:12:00.98
because increased education
created agitation against
00:12:01.18\00:12:05.12
the control of Rome.
00:12:05.15\00:12:06.76
It was really education that
directly led to the Reformation.
00:12:06.79\00:12:09.69
So you could have thought
that they would just be against
00:12:11.13\00:12:14.76
education and control it all.
00:12:14.80\00:12:16.36
But they respected knowledge.
00:12:16.40\00:12:18.47
But they wanted to direct
it to the ends of the papacy.
00:12:18.57\00:12:21.37
- There's no
question. ~ Correct.
00:12:21.40\00:12:22.74
One could say that, in essence,
rather than entering into
00:12:22.77\00:12:26.34
conflict with the educational
efforts, they actually
00:12:26.37\00:12:30.08
utilized it to achieve the
ends that they had in mind.
00:12:30.11\00:12:33.35
So coming back to
mention that here in America,
00:12:33.82\00:12:37.12
just for example, there's
Fordham University in New York,
00:12:37.15\00:12:39.69
there's Georgetown
University in the D.C. area
00:12:39.79\00:12:42.89
that are Jesuit institutions.
00:12:42.99\00:12:44.89
And they're designed not only to
train priests, Jesuit priests,
00:12:45.46\00:12:49.00
but also non-Catholics can
go there and get an education.
00:12:49.03\00:12:51.63
So it is one of their
ways of educating people,
00:12:51.67\00:12:54.50
and at minimum introducing
them to some of the elements
00:12:54.54\00:12:57.87
of the Catholic faith.
00:12:57.91\00:12:59.24
Then in later years
those individuals may have
00:12:59.27\00:13:01.58
some kind of an
experience that would lead them
00:13:01.61\00:13:03.51
into the Catholic faith.
00:13:03.55\00:13:04.88
That's a model that all
Christian groups follow.
00:13:04.91\00:13:10.82
And indeed, all religions.
00:13:10.85\00:13:12.19
That's the reason to have
an educational institution
00:13:12.22\00:13:16.19
and invite others in.
00:13:16.22\00:13:17.56
You want to influence
them to your viewpoint.
00:13:17.63\00:13:19.43
~ Sure. - It's not
illegitimate at all.
00:13:19.46\00:13:21.80
In fact, I think it's
been inordinately successful
00:13:21.83\00:13:24.77
in the United States.
00:13:24.80\00:13:26.17
I personally, as a matter
of history, find a lot of the
00:13:27.04\00:13:29.34
anti-Catholicism
of the United States
00:13:29.37\00:13:31.41
embarrassing, to say the least.
00:13:32.14\00:13:33.81
It was bigoted, and
at times even violent.
00:13:33.84\00:13:37.21
So we can't defend that.
00:13:37.88\00:13:39.38
But when you're looking at
00:13:39.61\00:13:40.98
Protestantism
verses Catholicism,
00:13:41.02\00:13:44.02
there's a great split with
deep doctrinal reasons for it.
00:13:44.05\00:13:47.76
It's amazing that in
this once Protestant society,
00:13:48.19\00:13:51.76
through many vehicles, but
most particularly, I think,
00:13:52.59\00:13:55.20
these educational
institutions run by the Jesuits,
00:13:55.23\00:13:57.57
they have been
inordinately successful
00:13:57.60\00:14:00.27
in just churning out
acolytes who in perhaps even
00:14:00.50\00:14:07.21
subtle ways are very
sympathetic to the aims
00:14:07.24\00:14:10.08
of the Roman Catholic structure.
00:14:10.11\00:14:12.31
That would have been
unimaginable 200 years ago.
00:14:12.35\00:14:15.18
~ That is true.
00:14:15.65\00:14:16.99
In fact, it was back in roughly
the 1820's through the 1860's
00:14:17.02\00:14:20.96
that there was a lot of
debate in America regarding
00:14:21.19\00:14:23.59
public education.
00:14:23.63\00:14:24.96
Because at one time,
being that this country was
00:14:24.99\00:14:28.46
predominately
settled through Protestants,
00:14:28.50\00:14:31.20
the Bible was
used in classrooms...
00:14:31.23\00:14:33.84
~ Well, churches and
communities ran the schools,
00:14:33.87\00:14:36.14
not the government.
00:14:36.17\00:14:37.51
~ Yes, and from that
influence, Protestantism...
00:14:37.54\00:14:41.54
The issue that became a church
state issue in ensuing years
00:14:41.94\00:14:45.45
was that if you had Catholic
pupils in those schools,
00:14:45.48\00:14:48.05
and they weren't simply going to
acknowledge the Protestant Bible
00:14:48.15\00:14:52.19
or Protestant viewpoints,
then that's where a lot of
00:14:52.22\00:14:54.76
controversy came
about, so that eventually
00:14:54.79\00:14:56.83
by the 1880's with Dewey and
his educational reform system,
00:14:57.19\00:15:01.60
he proposed the idea
of making it a secular
00:15:01.90\00:15:04.40
educational environment.
00:15:04.43\00:15:05.87
Which by the next century
in the 1900's the Supreme Court
00:15:05.97\00:15:09.94
hammered out specific
decisions establishing that;
00:15:09.97\00:15:12.67
no prayer, no
Bible reading in schools.
00:15:12.71\00:15:14.94
~ The whole
discussion of education...
00:15:14.98\00:15:16.68
You could end the
prayer and Bible study;
00:15:17.11\00:15:19.51
that's a separation of
church and state issue.
00:15:19.55\00:15:21.28
But the whole question of
education is an interesting one.
00:15:21.32\00:15:24.49
As I say, religion was
really the arbiter of education
00:15:24.79\00:15:30.86
for a long, long time, and
then in the early society in
00:15:30.89\00:15:34.03
in the U.S. different
communities would band together
00:15:34.06\00:15:36.43
and basically group fund.
00:15:36.46\00:15:38.63
But the idea of the
state running education
00:15:39.20\00:15:41.50
is relatively new, and it
coincides directly with the
00:15:41.54\00:15:44.07
industrialization of society and
the need of the state to train
00:15:44.11\00:15:49.14
citizens for its own purposes.
00:15:49.74\00:15:51.48
That's basically
what it boils down to.
00:15:51.51\00:15:53.11
And so we've then
built a contradiction between
00:15:53.35\00:15:56.22
the original aims
of education and goals
00:15:56.25\00:15:58.75
and the continuing
goals of religionists.
00:15:58.79\00:16:01.19
Roman Catholics are
only one of the groups.
00:16:01.29\00:16:02.89
Adventists run schools.
00:16:02.92\00:16:04.26
But there is a conflict between
the state aims and those aims.
00:16:04.49\00:16:08.90
And they perhaps can co-exist.
00:16:09.10\00:16:11.67
But when you fund them
together, you've built in
00:16:11.87\00:16:16.30
a conflict that I don't
think is easily reconcilable.
00:16:16.34\00:16:19.11
And that's why, you know,
going back to that debate,
00:16:19.54\00:16:22.71
kind of that time period in
the 1820's through the 1860's,
00:16:22.74\00:16:25.51
one of the thrusts that the
Catholics were putting forth,
00:16:25.81\00:16:29.15
they wanted to have their
own schools to educate their
00:16:29.25\00:16:31.49
children as Catholics, but they
wanted state support for that.
00:16:31.52\00:16:34.36
~ Yes, and that's a big issue.
00:16:34.46\00:16:36.29
We'll take a short break.
00:16:36.32\00:16:37.66
We'll be back to
continue this discussion of,
00:16:37.69\00:16:39.73
not just the Jesuits,
but religious education,
00:16:40.20\00:16:42.46
and what are the
deeper implications of that.
00:16:42.50\00:16:45.00
Stay with us.
00:16:45.03\00:16:46.43