Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000381B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break with guest, Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook, 00:10 whose specialty is church-state studies. 00:12 And I know a lot of the articles you have written for Liberty 00:15 have been on some of the edicts or documents that have 00:20 come out of Rome recently. 00:22 So we're talking about the Jesuit Order, its history, 00:25 and its role, and perhaps its aims, its methods, and so on. 00:31 It's a very interesting history, isn't it? 00:33 ~ Oh yes. - It's not ancient. 00:36 Even though it began a long time ago. 00:38 Almost 500 years ago in the aftermath of the Reformation. 00:44 But as I was saying, I listen to TV and I'm struck by 00:48 how often appointees are Jesuit educated 00:52 or sometimes even Jesuits themselves. 00:56 ~ Now I'm going to comment on that. 00:57 You know from their very beginning, the Society of Jesus, 01:02 they recognize the need for educating Catholics 01:06 to help them know their faith and stay within the church, 01:09 as well as trying to reach the Protestants and former Catholics 01:13 to come back to the faith. 01:15 So one of the things that they focused on was 01:17 their educational mission. 01:18 And it's very interesting learning how they, 01:21 some of their methodology is that they would go and 01:24 send out Jesuit trained priests into areas 01:26 where there were no schools. 01:28 And they would go out and mingle with the children 01:30 and start teaching them very basic doctrinal, catechismal 01:34 truths, but they would put it to song. 01:36 And so as the children would learn songs 01:38 they were learning their catechism. 01:40 And then what they would do is they would ask those children 01:43 to go and find their friends and teach them the same. 01:46 And so that's how they grew their numbers for pupils. 01:49 - Then they started the schools. ~ That's a very good technique. 01:50 - Yes. ~ There's nothing wrong. 01:51 And maybe other organizations, church or otherwise, 01:55 could learn from some of the methodologies. 01:59 They're hardly wrong. 02:00 And of course, I have to keep saying it, 02:03 on the principles of religious liberty, 02:06 even if you and I disagree strongly with the doctrines 02:10 and the spiritual position of any church, 02:13 in the case the Roman Catholic, on a religious liberty level 02:16 we can't deny their right to believe it 02:19 and full freedom to practice it. 02:21 So that's not what we're talking about here, but 02:24 we're into church history and the role of a group 02:28 that at different times have played a rather even bloody role, 02:33 I think, in religious rivalries and advancing the cause 02:38 of Rome against Protestantism. 02:40 Because that's more of how they saw themselves 02:43 after they were founded. 02:44 It was not just a military Order. 02:46 They were the foot soldiers and in some ways the special forces 02:52 of the papacy, right? 02:54 Yeah, what I would add to that, just kind of a clarification 02:57 or just a broadening, I should say, is that their original 03:01 beginning in 1534 focused on the aspect of ministry 03:04 of different types, meeting the needs of the poor, and so forth. 03:06 It's very similar to some of the other Orders that existed. 03:10 What distinguished them, though, is that they did take, just like 03:13 the Mendicant Order, vows of chastity, 03:16 and poverty, and obedience, but the one thing that 03:18 distinguished the Society of Jesus from all other Orders 03:21 was their ultimate allegiance to the pope regarding missions. 03:24 Well, they were seen to be his personal, 03:27 spiritual bodyguard, if you like. 03:29 That was stated from the very beginning. 03:32 The other thing, though, that was in 1534, 03:35 they were officially recognized in 1540. 03:36 And of course, Luther was in 1517. 03:41 ~ 1517, yeah. - 1517. Of course, 500 years. 03:44 So you can tell by the timing it followed very quickly 03:47 after the Reformation. 03:48 Not that Luther was the only Reformation figure, 03:51 but it had reached critical mass by his appearance. 03:55 By 1550 the Jesuit Order had basically been recognized 04:00 not only for a period of little over a decade by the pope, 04:03 but in addition to that, they recognized the advances 04:06 that Protestantism was making. 04:07 So in 1550 is when they actually added to their 04:11 spiritual formation order the statement 04:14 in defense of the faith. 04:15 That's what from that point onward they made it a particular 04:20 part of their mission to counter Protestantism. 04:24 Your mind is humming on the dates. 04:27 So what was the date of the Council of Trent? 04:30 It actually took place between 1542 to 1556, 04:34 roughly in that period, a little over 15 years. 04:36 That's when it really, I know that's when the die was cast 04:40 on the Jesuit Order, at the Council of Trent. 04:42 And very tellingly, even though we've seen wonderful 04:47 accommodations of late from Rome toward other Christians 04:51 and other religions, and there's an openness that 04:54 I find refreshing when I meet with some of the Catholic 04:57 audiences, things at Catholic universities, and so on, 05:01 but the Council of Trent has never been repudiated. 05:04 And there are some very heavy stuff there 05:08 that explain some of the actions of the Jesuits through the ages. 05:15 You know, the Inquisition was not a pleasant process, 05:18 and the Jesuits were front and center on that, weren't that? 05:20 The Franciscans were the actual inquisitors. 05:22 Now Jesuits were there present whenever the 05:25 preceding's were taking place, yes. 05:27 They were involved in it. 05:29 As some of their own documents kind of state, 05:32 their preference would be to address issues of 05:36 unfaithfulness, Catholic unfaithfulness, 05:38 through a pastoral role, but ultimately if the individual 05:41 was not willing to recant their false teachings, 05:44 yes, the Jesuits were involved in that 05:46 process of the Inquisition. 05:47 ~ And it's worth... 05:49 You know, to me this is more a historic thing 05:52 than an indictment of anyone. 05:54 But you know, right now the western world 05:56 is dealing with Islam in its radicalized form. 06:01 And some of its worst excesses are derived from the Koran 06:06 in statements about how you treat the apostate, and so on. 06:11 And I find these, of course, blood chilling. 06:14 But they're not that different from the attitudes 06:18 in the Christian world in the Middle Ages. 06:22 I don't think it's clearly derived from the Bible, 06:24 but they were held by the major church body 06:29 and put into practice in the Counter-Reformation 06:33 against religious dissidence. 06:35 And you're saying here that if you repented or recanted... 06:40 But it wasn't always that easy. 06:44 Sometimes they were happy to have the recanting 06:48 and the repenting as the last process as you expired. 06:51 ~Yes, that is true. 06:53 You know, when individuals... 06:55 I guess the central issue in cases like that 06:58 deals with a matter of conscience. 07:00 You know, if an individual had urged from the faith, 07:02 from the Catholic faith, just through ignorance, 07:06 because they were influenced by Protestant missionaries 07:08 that came into the town, then the Jesuits would have the 07:11 goal of establishing a school and trying to educate 07:14 the individuals and get them back into the faith. 07:16 In those cases, it was through a matter of ignorance and 07:18 they weren't really convicted of the Protestant teachings, 07:20 yes they would easily come back into the fold of Catholicism. 07:24 But in those cases where it was a matter of conscience, 07:26 they were convicted they should be Protestant, then that 07:29 is when it entered into a more prolonged process of any 07:32 inquisition that took place, and often times involved torture. 07:36 And ultimately, as you pointed out, the individual 07:38 was given the opportunity to recant their heresy 07:42 as they were burning at the stake. 07:43 And I've got an idea, I've never read it anywhere, 07:45 but I get it from reading, but I think... 07:51 You could study the medieval church and... 07:55 Well you mentioned syncretism. 07:57 Many of the attitudes of the medieval church 08:00 were somewhat indistinguishable from the superstitions and the 08:05 brutalities of life at the time. 08:09 And remember, it was common, I don't think it came from the 08:12 church, when like you were accused of being 08:16 a thief or something, they would throw you in the water 08:19 and if you floated, you were guilty. 08:22 And if you sank, you were innocent, right? 08:24 ~ Yes. 08:25 But if you sank, you drowned. 08:27 And I really believe that in the Inquisition there was 08:30 some of the same thinking. 08:31 They put you through the trial by torturers 08:34 to recant or to be innocent, but you die, 08:37 and you sort of die shriven and okay. 08:41 But you're not going to get out of it with your life. 08:43 And I don't even know how that came, but this was a curious 08:47 thing in the rough justice of villagers. 08:50 There was no way that a human being could come out 08:54 innocent and alive, but the trials by water and fire 08:57 and all the rest were applied. 08:59 And there was a funny parallel between those 09:02 and the methods of the Inquisition. 09:04 ~ Yes, that it true. 09:05 You know, one of the factors that's kind of historical 09:09 as well as a cultural aspect of Europe during the time 09:12 of the medieval period is that there was quite a bit rampant 09:16 superstition and ideas of, you know, myths of nymphs, 09:21 dwarfs, all of those things that are typically tied in with 09:24 more of the mystical aspect. 09:26 Well, and you're mentioning that, let's tell the listeners. 09:30 Think for a minute, what do the medieval churches 09:32 and cathedrals in Europe look like? 09:34 The gargoyles and all the rest. 09:36 That's where all that comes from. 09:37 The idea that these satanic or even ancestral sort of spirits 09:42 are all hovering around ready to devour you. 09:45 They make the steeples pointy so they can't sit on them, 09:48 and exercise them and chase them all away. 09:50 Very close to sort of a pre-Christian 09:55 sort of superstition, in my view. 09:57 Yes, and that's also why, you know, the work that Luther did 10:02 in going back and studying the Scriptures and bringing that 10:05 not only illuminated his own mind, but to the world. 10:07 It brought fresh air into the whole religious discussion, 10:09 there's no question. 10:11 And today it's been very trendy by the Roman Catholic Church 10:14 to sort of take ownership of Luther and these fellows. 10:17 I think that's a little disingenuous, 10:19 but there's no question that in the blow back 10:22 from the Reformation even the Roman Catholic Church 10:24 has been forced, well not forced perhaps, but I mean 10:28 it's almost inevitably opened up 10:32 and a little bit of light has shone... 10:34 ~ To re-evaluate, yes, something. 10:35 They've re-evaluated their views. 10:37 Yep, that certainly it true. 10:39 And you know dealing with, and kind of coming back 10:41 on point with that aspect of the Jesuits, 10:44 just a few little notable things in their history. 10:46 Within one decade they had actually grown to 1000 members. 10:50 And then by 1615 they had actually grown to 13,000. 10:54 ~ How many are there today? I haven't seen it recently. 10:56 Somewhere around 19,000 worldwide 11:00 serving in different countries. 11:01 Yeah, so it's an influential Order. 11:04 And you know, we have to respect, and not admire, 11:08 but recognize the great value they're playing 11:11 in their church even today. 11:13 Of course, the pope is a Jesuit, 11:14 which is items for a whole discussion. 11:18 ~ Yes, for sure. He's the first... 11:20 How should Protestants look at the Jesuit Order today, 11:23 as sort of a take away? 11:24 What would you say to that? 11:26 I would say, there are... 11:27 You know, we have to look at, and the Bible tells us to 11:30 take time to recognize, give honor where honor is due. 11:33 There are some good things that Jesuits have done 11:36 in some countries in the world today 11:38 regarding the rights of indigenous peoples. 11:42 So that's on the positive side. 11:43 On the flip side, they are still heavily involved 11:46 in a lot of political issues, which is something 11:48 that ties back to kind of throughout their history. 11:51 So that's a balanced perspective on the Society of Jesus. 11:58 Curiously, given the depredations of war, 12:00 Christians have shown themselves in the modern era 12:04 to be quite enamored with the warfare imagery. 12:09 Take General Booth and the Salvation Army, 12:12 seemingly harmless. 12:13 Take, Onward Christian Soldiers, 12:16 and even, The Battle Hymn of the Republic, 12:18 where real civil war and religious sentiment combined. 12:23 But when we look back at the Reformation 12:25 and the very real religious struggle that ensued, 12:28 to hear of the founding of the Jesuits is to know 12:32 that it was not just founded by a soldier. 12:35 They took this as their battle orders 12:38 to, by hook or by crook, by violent or fair or foul means, 12:43 to roll back the disgrace of the Church 12:46 and to bring back the heretics. 12:49 Not by swords loud clashing, but by deeds of love and mercy 12:55 is really the way we should see the need to carry on 12:58 the spiritual battle. 13:00 For Liberty Inside, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2018-03-15