Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break with
guest, Ed Cook, Dr. Ed Cook,
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whose specialty is
church-state studies.
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And I know a lot of the articles
you have written for Liberty
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have been on some of the
edicts or documents that have
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come out of Rome recently.
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So we're talking about
the Jesuit Order, its history,
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and its role, and perhaps its
aims, its methods, and so on.
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It's a very
interesting history, isn't it?
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~ Oh yes. - It's not ancient.
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Even though it
began a long time ago.
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Almost 500 years ago in the
aftermath of the Reformation.
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But as I was saying, I
listen to TV and I'm struck by
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how often
appointees are Jesuit educated
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or sometimes even
Jesuits themselves.
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~ Now I'm going
to comment on that.
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You know from their very
beginning, the Society of Jesus,
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they recognize the
need for educating Catholics
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to help them know their faith
and stay within the church,
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as well as trying to reach the
Protestants and former Catholics
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to come back to the faith.
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So one of the things
that they focused on was
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their educational mission.
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And it's very
interesting learning how they,
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some of their methodology
is that they would go and
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send out Jesuit
trained priests into areas
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where there were no schools.
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And they would go out
and mingle with the children
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and start teaching them very
basic doctrinal, catechismal
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truths, but they
would put it to song.
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And so as the
children would learn songs
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they were
learning their catechism.
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And then what they would do
is they would ask those children
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to go and find their
friends and teach them the same.
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And so that's how they
grew their numbers for pupils.
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- Then they started the schools.
~ That's a very good technique.
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- Yes. ~ There's nothing wrong.
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And maybe other organizations,
church or otherwise,
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could learn from
some of the methodologies.
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They're hardly wrong.
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And of course, I
have to keep saying it,
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on the principles
of religious liberty,
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even if you and I disagree
strongly with the doctrines
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and the spiritual
position of any church,
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in the case the Roman Catholic,
on a religious liberty level
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we can't deny
their right to believe it
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and full freedom to practice it.
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So that's not what
we're talking about here, but
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we're into church
history and the role of a group
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that at different times
have played a rather even bloody
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role, I think, in religious
rivalries and advancing the
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cause of Rome
against Protestantism.
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Because that's more of
how they saw themselves
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after they were founded.
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It was not just
a military Order.
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They were the foot soldiers and
in some ways the special forces
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of the papacy, right?
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Yeah, what I would add to that,
just kind of a clarification
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or just a broadening, I should
say, is that their original
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beginning in 1534 focused
on the aspect of ministry
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of different types, meeting the
needs of the poor, and so forth.
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It's very similar to some of
the other Orders that existed.
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What distinguished them, though,
is that they did take, just like
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the Mendicant
Order, vows of chastity,
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and poverty, and obedience,
but the one thing that
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distinguished the Society
of Jesus from all other Orders
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was their ultimate allegiance
to the pope regarding missions.
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Well, they were
seen to be his personal,
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spiritual
bodyguard, if you like.
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That was stated
from the very beginning.
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The other thing,
though, that was in 1534,
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they were
officially recognized in 1540.
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And of course,
Luther was in 1517.
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~ 1517, yeah. -
1517. Of course, 500 years.
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So you can tell by the
timing it followed very quickly
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after the Reformation.
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Not that Luther was the
only Reformation figure,
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but it had reached
critical mass by his appearance.
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By 1550 the Jesuit Order
had basically been recognized
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not only for a period of little
over a decade by the pope,
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but in addition to that,
they recognized the advances
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that Protestantism was making.
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So in 1550 is when
they actually added to their
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spiritual
formation order the statement
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in defense of the faith.
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That's what from that point
onward they made it a particular
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part of their mission
to counter Protestantism.
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Your mind is
humming on the dates.
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So what was the date
of the Council of Trent?
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It actually took
place between 1542 to 1556,
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roughly in that
period, a little over 15 years.
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That's when it really, I know
that's when the die was cast
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on the Jesuit Order,
at the Council of Trent.
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And very tellingly, even
though we've seen wonderful
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accommodations of late from
Rome toward other Christians
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and other religions,
and there's an openness that
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I find refreshing when I
meet with some of the Catholic
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audiences, things at Catholic
universities, and so on,
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but the Council of Trent
has never been repudiated.
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And there are some
very heavy stuff there
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that explain some of the actions
of the Jesuits through the ages.
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You know, the Inquisition
was not a pleasant process,
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and the Jesuits were front and
center on that, weren't that?
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The Franciscans were
the actual inquisitors.
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Now Jesuits were
there present whenever the
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preceding's were
taking place, yes.
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They were involved in it.
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As some of their own
documents kind of state,
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their preference would
be to address issues of
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unfaithfulness,
Catholic unfaithfulness,
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through a pastoral role,
but ultimately if the individual
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was not willing to
recant their false teachings,
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yes, the Jesuits
were involved in that
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process of the Inquisition.
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~ And it's worth...
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You know, to me this
is more a historic thing
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than an indictment of anyone.
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But you know, right
now the western world
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is dealing with Islam
in its radicalized form.
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And some of its worst excesses
are derived from the Koran
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in statements about how you
treat the apostate, and so on.
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And I find these, of
course, blood chilling.
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But they're not that
different from the attitudes
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in the Christian
world in the Middle Ages.
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I don't think it's
clearly derived from the Bible,
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but they were held
by the major church body
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and put into practice
in the Counter-Reformation
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against religious dissidence.
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And you're saying here that
if you repented or recanted...
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But it wasn't always that easy.
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Sometimes they were
happy to have the recanting
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and the repenting as the
last process as you expired.
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~Yes, that is true.
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You know, when individuals...
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I guess the central
issue in cases like that
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deals with a
matter of conscience.
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You know, if an individual
had urged from the faith,
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from the Catholic
faith, just through ignorance,
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because they were influenced
by Protestant missionaries
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that came into the town,
then the Jesuits would have the
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goal of establishing a
school and trying to educate
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the individuals and get
them back into the faith.
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In those cases, it was through
a matter of ignorance and
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they weren't really convicted
of the Protestant teachings,
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yes they would easily come back
into the fold of Catholicism.
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But in those cases where
it was a matter of conscience,
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they were convicted they
should be Protestant, then that
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is when it entered into a
more prolonged process of any
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inquisition that took place, and
often times involved torture.
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And ultimately, as you
pointed out, the individual
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was given the opportunity
to recant their heresy
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as they were
burning at the stake.
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And I've got an idea,
I've never read it anywhere,
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but I get it from
reading, but I think...
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You could study the
medieval church and...
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Well you mentioned syncretism.
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Many of the attitudes
of the medieval church
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were somewhat indistinguishable
from the superstitions and the
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brutalities of life at the time.
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And remember, it was common,
I don't think it came from the
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church, when like
you were accused of being
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a thief or something, they
would throw you in the water
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and if you
floated, you were guilty.
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And if you sank, you
were innocent, right?
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~ Yes.
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But if you sank, you drowned.
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And I really believe that
in the Inquisition there was
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some of the same thinking.
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They put you through
the trial by torturers
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to recant or to be
innocent, but you die,
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and you sort of
die shriven and okay.
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But you're not going to
get out of it with your life.
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And I don't even know how that
came, but this was a curious
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thing in the rough
justice of villagers.
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There was no way that a
human being could come out
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innocent and alive, but
the trials by water and fire
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and all the rest were applied.
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And there was a funny
parallel between those
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and the methods
of the Inquisition.
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~ Yes, that it true.
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You know, one of the factors
that's kind of historical
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as well as a cultural
aspect of Europe during the time
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of the medieval period is that
there was quite a bit rampant
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superstition and ideas
of, you know, myths of nymphs,
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dwarfs, all of those things
that are typically tied in with
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more of the mystical aspect.
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Well, and you're mentioning
that, let's tell the listeners.
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Think for a minute,
what do the medieval churches
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and cathedrals
in Europe look like?
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The gargoyles and all the rest.
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That's where
all that comes from.
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The idea that these satanic or
even ancestral sort of spirits
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are all hovering
around ready to devour you.
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They make the steeples pointy
so they can't sit on them,
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and exercise them
and chase them all away.
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Very close to
sort of a pre-Christian
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sort of
superstition, in my view.
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Yes, and that's also why, you
know, the work that Luther did
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in going back and studying
the Scriptures and bringing that
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not only illuminated his
own mind, but to the world.
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It brought fresh air into
the whole religious discussion,
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there's no question.
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And today it's been very trendy
by the Roman Catholic Church
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to sort of take ownership
of Luther and these fellows.
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I think that's a
little disingenuous,
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but there's no
question that in the blow back
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from the Reformation
even the Roman Catholic Church
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has been forced, well not
forced perhaps, but I mean
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it's almost inevitably opened up
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and a little bit
of light has shone...
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~ To
re-evaluate, yes, something.
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They've
re-evaluated their views.
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Yep, that certainly it true.
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And you know dealing
with, and kind of coming back
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on point with that
aspect of the Jesuits,
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just a few little
notable things in their history.
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Within one decade they had
actually grown to 1000 members.
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And then by 1615 they
had actually grown to 13,000.
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~ How many are there today?
I haven't seen it recently.
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Somewhere
around 19,000 worldwide
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serving in different countries.
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Yeah, so it's an
influential Order.
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And you know, we have
to respect, and not admire,
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but recognize the
great value they're playing
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in their church even today.
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Of course, the pope is a Jesuit,
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which is items for
a whole discussion.
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~ Yes, for sure.
He's the first...
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How should Protestants
look at the Jesuit Order today,
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as sort of a take away?
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What would you say to that?
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I would say, there are...
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You know, we have to look
at, and the Bible tells us to
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take time to recognize,
give honor where honor is due.
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There are some good
things that Jesuits have done
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in some countries
in the world today
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regarding the rights
of indigenous peoples.
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So that's on the positive side.
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On the flip side, they
are still heavily involved
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in a lot of political
issues, which is something
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that ties back to kind
of throughout their history.
00:11:48.70\00:11:50.97
So that's a balanced perspective
on the Society of Jesus.
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Curiously, given
the depredations of war,
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Christians have shown
themselves in the modern era
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to be quite enamored
with the warfare imagery.
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Take General Booth
and the Salvation Army,
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seemingly harmless.
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Take, Onward Christian Soldiers,
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and even, The Battle
Hymn of the Republic,
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where real civil war and
religious sentiment combined.
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But when we look
back at the Reformation
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and the very real
religious struggle that ensued,
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to hear of the founding
of the Jesuits is to know
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that it was not just
founded by a soldier.
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They took this as
their battle orders
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to, by hook or by crook, by
violent or fair or foul means,
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to roll back the
disgrace of the Church
00:12:43.12\00:12:46.43
and to bring back the heretics.
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Not by swords loud clashing,
but by deeds of love and mercy
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is really the way we
should see the need to carry on
00:12:55.14\00:12:58.57
the spiritual battle.
00:12:58.61\00:12:59.97
For Liberty Inside,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:00.91\00:13:04.38