Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000381A
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00:24 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:26 This is the program bringing you news, views, 00:28 discussion, insight, and up-to-date information 00:31 on religious liberty events in the U.S. and around the world. 00:35 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest on this program is Dr. Ed Cook, 00:43 minister of religion, author, including many articles 00:47 in Liberty Magazine, and a successful lecturer 00:50 on religious liberty. 00:51 Because your doctorate is in church-state studies 00:54 from Baylor University, the now defunct JM Dawson Institute 01:00 for Church-State Studies. 01:01 A little correction I would add on that, though, 01:02 is that, yes, as far as offering doctoral degrees, 01:04 they don't do that any longer, but Masters degrees 01:07 in church and state, they still do all that. 01:09 ~ But JM Dawson is gone. 01:10 And you know, things come and go at universities, 01:13 but from my perspective on religious liberty, 01:16 it's regrettable because I think it signaled 01:19 somewhat of a sea-change within the Baptist 01:24 and how they see church/state separation. 01:26 Now JM Dawson Institute thought very much like 01:30 Seventh-day Adventists on the necessity for a 01:32 true separation of church and state, à la the constitution, 01:36 where many religionists, and Baptist included nowadays 01:40 in the United States, they want to see sort of a closer tie-up, 01:43 the government more supportive for religion. 01:46 Which is an attractive argument, isn't it? 01:48 - But dangerous way to hit. ~ That is certainly true. 01:52 Now talking about dangerous, I want to really dialogue 01:54 with you about something that I know you're going to 01:56 write for Liberty Magazine. 01:58 You're under assignment. 02:00 An article on the Jesuits. 02:03 In the last few months some of your predecessors 02:06 on this program have shared with me and with our viewers 02:10 good discussions on the Reformation. 02:14 But many things came out of the Reformation. 02:17 What was one from the Roman Catholic perspective? 02:20 I think that, you know, dealing with that aspect of the Jesuits, 02:23 they ended up developing into the most prestigious 02:27 Order within the Roman Catholic Church. 02:29 And their initial beginnings in 1534 by Ignatius Loyola... 02:34 ~ An ex-soldier, right? 02:36 He had been, yes. 02:37 Wounded in battle, and therefore devoted himself to spiritual 02:40 exercises and becoming more devout. 02:42 And eventually decided to organize a society, 02:45 a group of men, dedicated to serving the church. 02:49 ~ Society of Jesus, it's called. - Yes. 02:51 And in the beginning they were not specifically dedicated 02:54 to overthrowing, or defending the Catholic faith through 02:58 overthrowing Protestantism. 02:59 Although in later years by 1550, that became a very specific 03:03 part of their mission. 03:04 But it seems to me, from the very beginning 03:07 he had this dream of what amounted to a military 03:11 structure designed to advance the cause of the church. 03:13 Yes, very disciplined, one can certainly say that. 03:16 Because from 1534 until roughly about 1556 03:20 he spent those years studying how to, as he believed, 03:25 to lead the believers that were part of the company of Jesus, 03:28 becoming Jesuits, to practice their spiritual exercises 03:32 to become more devout, more pious. 03:34 I think that one of the things that he saw by that time, 03:36 by 1556, was recognizing the advances that Protestantism 03:41 was making in many former Catholic countries, 03:44 and therefore trying to lead former Catholics, 03:47 and even those that were still Catholics, 03:49 leading them into a more pious experience so they 03:52 would remain within the church. 03:53 Yeah, and it's a good point you're bringing out. 03:56 And of course, you would expect that as a church Order 03:59 within the Roman Catholic Church, 04:02 you'd expect there to be a 04:03 distinct element of spirituality. 04:05 It's not just church and plays, right? 04:09 But I think it is significant that Loyola, in his early days 04:13 particularly, it was a spirituality, not in my view, 04:16 divergent from what in recent years the larger world has seen 04:21 popularized, I guess is the word, in Dan Brown's book, 04:25 with the Opus Dei. 04:27 Again, this is almost a mystical religiosity, isn't it? 04:31 Yeah, I would say that, you know, the primary book that 04:34 Loyola wrote dealing with spiritual exercises, 04:36 is bears that title, Spiritual Exercises, 04:39 in the sense that over a period of weeks 04:42 the devotee is to dedicate time in isolation, 04:46 and fasting, and taking time for prayer, 04:49 learning of the Catechism and the Catholic faith. 04:52 In essence, deepening himself, trying to find a deeper 04:56 spiritual experience with God. 04:58 And part of that involves the aspect of, through the fasting 05:02 over a period of days, sometimes weeks even, 05:04 the individual has a revelation from God that 05:07 leads him to dedicate his life to the mission of the work 05:10 and at the church. 05:11 You know, my Seventh-day Adventist ministers... 05:14 And that's no secret on this network. 05:16 Although we're talking to a larger audience. 05:19 But it's worth noting that our church has long struggled 05:25 with the need for revival and spirituality. 05:28 And at the moment there's a movement that some of us 05:33 find a little problematic. 05:34 We call it, spiritual formation. 05:38 And many of the proponents of that take their inspiration 05:42 from Loyola's type of spiritual exercises 05:46 and some other Catholic mystics. 05:51 Is that all good? Why would that be problematic? 05:54 Well I think that, you know, when we take time to have our 05:57 foundations on Scripture, of course, and you know, 05:59 Jesus does admonish us to pray. 06:02 You know, Paul even said that we should pray always. 06:04 He tells us that in 1 Thessalonians 5. 06:08 But at the same time, we also recognize 06:10 that any kind of spiritual experience we have 06:12 needs to be grounded in Scripture. 06:15 So the idea of looking for an experience that involves 06:18 a revelation... 06:19 Like, if I'm fasting to the point that I end up going 06:21 into some kind of, as Catholic terminology would be, 06:25 a spiritual ecstasy... 06:26 ~ Almost a trance, isn't it? A trance like state. 06:29 ...one would question and say, "How can I discern this spirit 06:32 that is actually revealing itself to me?" 06:34 And that's where, you know, in 1 John he tells us, chapter 3, 06:37 that we should take time to, excuse me, chapter 4, 06:40 we should test the spirits to see whether 06:41 they're from God or not. 06:43 ~ Yeah, very good answer. 06:44 Yeah, because it's not just Jesuit exercises, 06:46 and it's not even just in Christianity. 06:49 You know, you can see that humans seem to have a propensity 06:51 to meditate, and to think and to self-induce a sort of 06:58 an altered state. 07:00 ~ Self-hypnosis, almost. - Yeah, yeah. 07:02 Where they often feel that something powerful is happening. 07:06 And it may be on occasion that there's even some 07:09 spiritual entity taking possession. 07:11 But even absent that, it's a delusion. 07:13 You can feel that you've been led, that you know better. 07:18 And you're right, it can become divorced from 07:20 plain statements of Scripture. 07:23 And that's what we're afraid of. 07:25 And I think there's plenty of evidence 07:27 that Ignatius Loyola was into that sort of dynamic. 07:31 And I've got to say this, there is a strength, in my view... 07:34 Tell me, you studied the Roman Catholic Church, 07:36 the Reformation, and this whole thing deeply. 07:39 I think that's structurally part of the strength of 07:42 the Roman Catholic Church, that it has strong dogma. 07:47 Not a loose organization in the sense that, you know, 07:50 you have to acknowledge the pope, and so on. 07:52 But they can embrace within this larger thing quite divergent 07:56 Orders and carve out a little space for themselves. 07:59 And they're doing things that are in some levels almost 08:01 antithetical to the larger picture. 08:04 But they're controlled, they're managed. 08:06 Yeah, I would say that the hierarchical structure 08:10 of the church; you know, with the pope, and then you've got 08:12 your cardinals, bishops, and so forth down the line 08:14 to the lay priest, that is something that 08:17 is very organized as a body, as a church organization. 08:22 And of course, they do have their dogma that they uphold. 08:25 But at the same time, like you pointed out, 08:27 they do have Orders that are down at the lower levels 08:30 that in essence adapt themselves to specific 08:32 circumstances or cultures. 08:34 And that's how even Matteo Ricci, one of the first Jesuits, 08:38 managed to go all the way to Japan and actually was able to 08:42 reach the Japanese, as well as some of the Chinese, 08:44 just by adapting Catholic teachings to the culture and 08:48 their viewpoints. 08:49 Yeah, you know, that part of the Jesuit story 08:51 is a matter of history. 08:53 I think it's a great model for Christian endeavors everywhere. 08:57 The Jesuits early on clearly had a vision of expansion 09:01 and they went to areas that the western 09:05 influence really had hardly reached. 09:07 And in many places they were the horse whisperers 09:11 to the rulers. 09:15 But that didn't come easy. 09:16 I mean, they really crossed great cultural divides 09:19 to get into those positions. 09:22 I can't say that was wrong. 09:24 And they became heroes of Catholic missions. 09:29 And as I've even told Adventist audiences, 09:32 for example, with the Mormons too. 09:34 Obviously, I don't share their doctrinal standards 09:38 or their doctrinal positions. 09:40 But their mission structure is very admirable. 09:42 ~ Yeah, their zeal for missions is something that's notable. 09:44 And the way they organize, and so on. 09:46 We can learn from other human beings, 09:48 if they're not even other churches, 09:50 on mechanisms for outreach. 09:52 And you know, I admire them. 09:53 And at the same time, I think that kind of maybe the 09:56 cautionary note would be that the Jesuits, 09:59 in their adaptation to those people of other faiths 10:02 in other countries and cultures, the challenge that the Jesuits 10:06 ran into is that the work that Matteo Ricci did 10:09 there in Japan and China was such that it gave Catholicism 10:13 an inroad, they got a foot into the country 10:16 by meeting the people kind of at their level. 10:18 But some of the adaptations that he did were recognized 10:22 more so as syncretism. 10:23 So in essence he was taking Catholic doctrine 10:27 and adapting it to such an extent that it actually lost 10:31 its distinctive Catholic teaching, 10:33 to adapt to the religious beliefs of the people there. 10:36 But that was historically never a huge problem as long as 10:38 there was an acknowledgment of the primacy 10:40 of the church and the pope. 10:43 There's a little bit of a checkered history within 10:45 Catholicism, first in the point that there did reach a time 10:49 when the papacy actually recognized and questioned 10:53 some of Matteo Ricci's methods in those countries 10:55 and actually banned the approach that he was taking. 10:59 Now in other areas... 11:01 ~ As in the 70's when John Paul II came along. 11:04 The Jesuits in his view were in overreach with 11:07 the liberation theology and they were reigned in and redirected. 11:10 Even banned. They were silenced. 11:12 Well, there was an intention for a while to disband the Order. 11:15 But instead there was a new director, and then they 11:21 were all asked to swear personal fealty. 11:23 So they're sort of the Order out in our era. 11:27 But it's an interesting Order and it's a story, as I say, 11:30 I think needs to be told and discussed because 11:32 it's so tied up to the whole story of the Reformation 11:36 and the response of the Roman Catholic Church. 11:38 And indeed their role is quite prominent today. 11:43 I mean, you would have to be tone deaf and never watch 11:47 television to miss the fact that in the United States, 11:50 a once Protestant country, almost any major appointment 11:54 nowadays they are either, well not either, 11:58 they're nearly always Jesuit educated 12:00 or Roman Catholic with Jesuit connections. 12:03 Now you know, that's not sinister in the narrowest 12:05 sense, but it just shows how diligent they've been to... 12:08 ~ Their educational mission. 12:10 ...inculcate their values and prepare the way 12:12 for a wider influence. 12:14 One of the things that I would mention, you know, 12:16 tying back in with the Jesuits, and your initial question was, 12:19 what came out of the Reformation? 12:22 So the Jesuits being founded in 1534 by Ignatius Loyola, 12:25 it was in 1540 that Pope Paul III 12:30 actually recognized them as an official Order 12:32 and gave them the blessings of the church. 12:35 The papal bull that he wrote was Regimini Militantis Ecclesiae; 12:40 the militant regiment of the church. 12:43 Which is back to my comment that it was 12:44 militaristic in style from the beginning. 12:46 ~ Very structured, very rigid in its discipline. 12:48 Now, we'll take a break now. 12:50 You know, I want to discuss this a little further, 12:51 and I'm sure you have questions on this. 12:53 So stay with us and we'll be back very shortly. |
Revised 2018-03-15