Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000380A
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00:25 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:27 This is your program bringing you news, views, 00:30 discussion, and insights on religious liberty events 00:34 and theory even in the U.S. and around the world. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:40 And my guest on this program is my son, Christopher Steed. 00:44 He's still a teenager, a young man. 00:46 Sometimes listens to his dad, and I know has some opinions 00:50 on religious liberty. 00:51 And you've traveled with our family a few places. 00:55 And I want to pick up on one of the trips you may not remember. 00:58 I think you were about twelve. 01:00 You should remember. 01:02 We went to Europe. 01:06 - Remember Europe? ~ I remember Europe. 01:08 I remember parts of it. 01:10 - You remember Rome? - I do remember Rome. 01:12 It says all roads lead to Rome. 01:14 We ended up in Rome. 01:15 Drove around through Switzerland. 01:18 We actually went into Italy, and then Venice, 01:22 and then worked our way down. 01:23 And we ended up in Rome. 01:25 I even pointed out, remember pointing out 01:27 to you the seven hills. 01:29 Not too big, but there are seven hills around Rome. 01:31 And there we saw all of the monuments stretched out. 01:34 And we spent a couple of days. 01:36 ~ I remember it was hot. - And one of the things 01:38 that I showed you, but you probably don't remember, 01:40 but it was significant to me, was Pilates Staircase. 01:45 I do remember. 01:47 I believe we walked up the staircase. 01:49 - I believe we did do that. ~ Yes, a marble staircase. 01:52 And as we walked up, there were pilgrims 01:56 kneeling and doing it one knee step at a time, 01:59 praying all the way. 02:01 Now this is supposedly the same staircase 02:04 as Pilate's staircase in Jerusalem, 02:07 which was destroyed by Rome. 02:09 And I don't know if I showed you at the time, 02:11 but I've seen it since on a trip to Rome, 02:14 that there's the Arch of Titus, 02:16 the general that destroyed Jerusalem. 02:19 And there's carvings there that show them bringing back 02:23 the candlesticks and other treasures from the temple 02:26 in Jerusalem to Rome after destroying Jerusalem. 02:32 But Pilate's Staircase is very pivotal to the reformation. 02:36 Because there was a certain monk named Martin Luther, 02:41 he had some personal problems in his life, 02:44 he had a great sense of guilt. 02:46 He was trying to overcompensate for a father that wanted a lot 02:49 out of him, wanted him to be a lawyer. 02:51 So he was challenging his dad to go into the priesthood. 02:54 He then had problems with feeling accepted by God. 02:57 There's no question Martin Luther had issues, as they say. 03:02 And his abbot, I think it was, thought that he could 03:04 solve some of that by sending Martin Luther 03:07 on a pilgrimage to Rome. 03:09 And he was quite bothered to see the wealth of the church 03:13 and the lack of religious fervor in so many ways. 03:18 And then on one occasion he went to Pilate's Staircase, 03:22 this rebuilt staircase from the destruction of Jerusalem, 03:25 supposedly, carried and rebuilt in Rome. 03:29 And the pilgrims would go up one step at a time 03:32 hoping to gain favor with God. 03:34 And Martin Luther started up those stairs on his knees. 03:38 And halfway up he suddenly remembered the text, 03:41 "The just shall live by faith." 03:43 ~ Not by acts. 03:44 And he leapt to his feet, and supposedly that was 03:47 the big moment theologically where 03:50 he started the reformation. 03:52 Because he saw that what the church was doing 03:55 in selling time out of purgatory, 03:59 of making you confess to the priest thinking that 04:01 he had the route to God, was all misdirected. 04:05 So the reformation was a big moment. 04:07 And you've been to one of the places where that kicked off. 04:11 You've also been to Geneva where another one of the great 04:17 reformers, John Calvin, rose up. 04:20 And at one stage Calvin was even made basically 04:23 the mayor of Geneva and ruled it from a 04:27 religious point of view, which wasn't good. 04:30 And sadly he even used his power... 04:34 Well, he didn't so much use it, but he didn't stop the 04:38 persecution of another religious leader, Michael Servetus. 04:41 And they put him to death because he held 04:43 different religion reasons. 04:45 So the reformation was a good move, but not everything 04:48 that happened was great. 04:50 But I do believe that so much of what we hold today 04:54 we owe to the reformation. 04:57 Do you have that sense? 04:59 I believe that most of, actually most of all 05:02 we believe that, yes it does tie back to the reformation, yes. 05:07 I don't know that you've read it, and I need to make sure 05:09 you read the book, Great Controversy. 05:11 ~ I've read... 05:12 You've probably read parts of it. 05:14 When I was in school, where was that at, Huntingdon Academy, 05:18 we read bits of it in class. 05:20 It was either in the Bible class or the English class. 05:24 I can't remember exactly which class it was. 05:26 But we read through it and then we had a test on it at the end. 05:31 ~ Good. 05:32 And I remember reading through it and it changed my perspective 05:37 on some things. 05:40 But it influenced me in a very good way. 05:43 I know that for sure. 05:44 Well you know, Seventh-day Adventists 05:46 I think have a great position in the book, Great Controversy. 05:50 And it was written, or... 05:52 It was written, but I can even use the word, "assembled," 05:56 by Ellen White, who we believe had spiritual insights. 06:02 But this was put together as a service, 06:05 not just for the church, but for all people. 06:08 And if you look at this book structurally, 06:10 what it really is, is mostly a collection of the history 06:15 of God's dealings through the years. 06:16 And in particular there's a lot of the church history 06:19 in the medieval times through the reformation. 06:24 And it's not unique history. 06:25 You can get it in history books, but most people don't read that. 06:28 So it's assembled here to give a tunnel vision 06:32 of religious truth through the reformation 06:35 and beyond to our day. 06:37 And it impressed on me when I read that book 06:40 how much we owe, as both a Seventh-day Adventist 06:43 but as Christians in general, at this time and place 06:46 to the reformation. 06:47 And you know, I deal with religious liberty, 06:49 and I got to tell you I am really impressed, 06:53 sometimes a little frightened, by how at the moment 06:56 the Catholic church is ready to own the reformation. 07:01 At the time, they were ready to put Martin Luther on the stake. 07:05 They would have gladly burned him alive if they could. 07:07 But he was protected by the civil ruler 07:12 in his part of Germany. 07:14 And then eventually by all the German princes. 07:17 But at the moment, they're saying that the reformation 07:21 was the payoff of views within the Catholic church 07:24 that were bubbling up to reform the church. 07:27 That's not really true. 07:29 By definition, all of the reformers were from 07:32 the Catholic context, but they were rebelling against it. 07:36 They weren't carrying forward what Catholicism wanted to do. 07:41 We take it further back, that they were rediscovering 07:44 what Christianity originally was that through the ages 07:48 the church in general, and then as it became 07:51 in the west the Roman Catholic church, 07:53 had forgotten and denied, and sometimes even opposed. 07:58 Do you another figure you've heard me 08:00 talk about, Oliver Cromwell? 08:02 Yes. Many, many, many times. 08:03 - One of my heroes. - Yes. 08:05 You mentioned him a few Sabbaths ago. 08:08 We were at people's house and we were talking, 08:12 and you mentioned him to the husband. 08:14 Yeah, because I like to tell Americans about Oliver Cromwell. 08:17 English people from England, Canada, and Australia, 08:22 they know all about Oliver Cromwell. 08:24 Americans don't seem to. 08:26 They don't realize that 100 years before American 08:30 independence, in England they had a religious civil war. 08:35 I mean, a full scale civil war. 08:37 And it was all over the Puritans. 08:39 And it started out a political battle, but it soon turned into 08:44 the Puritans fighting against the king and his 08:48 Catholic sympathizers. 08:50 And they beat the king, they took him prisoner, 08:53 they put him on trial, and they... 08:55 The single thing he did that made him an enemy of the state 08:59 is when he was in trouble, he plotted and planned to bring 09:02 a Catholic army to save him. 09:05 In a Protestant country, that was just no good. 09:08 So they cut off his head. 09:09 And Oliver Cromwell became the dictator of England. 09:13 Not as bad as some dictators, but it was direct rule. 09:17 And the reason I'm bringing this up, 09:20 I don't know that you know this, son. 09:22 But when Oliver Cromwell was ruling, and England was 09:26 a strong country at that point, he took on a lot of battles. 09:30 And one of the worst things he did was kill the Catholic Irish. 09:34 He laid the problems for today. 09:37 But during his reign, the Waldensian situation developed. 09:41 You know about that, remember? 09:43 I do know about the Waldensians. 09:45 Yeah, and I'm trying to think if we went... 09:48 No I don't think on our trip we went to that area, 09:51 but we drove past it nearby. 09:53 But I've been into the mountains, 09:55 which is what, "Waldenses," means; 09:58 the mountain people. 09:59 And they were being persecuted by the Duke of Savoy, 10:02 encouraged by Rome, to get rid of these dissenters. 10:05 And Oliver Cromwell, he sent word to the Duke of Savoy, 10:09 he said, "Unless you stop persecuting the Waldenses," 10:13 he said, "I personally will lead an English Protestant army 10:16 to relieve them." 10:19 And I think Adventists particularly should know that. 10:21 Because they read about the Waldenses 10:23 in, Great Controversy, right? 10:29 Let me ask you a leading question. 10:32 Do you think of America as a Protestant country, 10:35 as you grow up here and seek to discover this country 10:41 you're a part of? 10:42 I don't see it as a... 10:44 I mean, I guess I do see it as a Protestant country. 10:46 But I see it more so as a Christian country as well, 10:50 because it's one of the main religions in the United States. 10:53 I remember seeing a pie chart of the world religions 10:55 that are in the United States, and I remember just seeing this 10:57 massive chunk and it said, "Christianity." 11:00 And I'm like, wow, that's a massive chunk 11:04 of the United States that believes that Christianity 11:07 is the main religion. 11:09 Demographically, yes, you're right, 11:11 it's still a Protestant country. 11:16 And of course, it's not necessary that it be Protestant. 11:19 We've got to keep that in mind. 11:20 It's a secular country, and as we said once in a program 11:25 on the Treaty of Tripoli, for all people, all religions. 11:27 Right? 11:29 But it must mean something that it changed 11:33 from mostly Protestant to such a mixture now. 11:37 Do you think it's important to, sort of, rediscover 11:40 our history a bit? 11:41 I believe that, yes, it is important to go back 11:44 and review our history and to see where our roots came from. 11:48 But at the same time, I believe it's good also 11:50 to look forward and to see where our country is going, 11:55 whether good or bad. 11:57 So it's important that it continue its 11:59 protection for all faiths. 12:01 - That's what you're saying. ~ Yes, yes. 12:02 Yeah, I agree with that. 12:06 But we're entering a difficult time. 12:08 And I often write in Liberty Magazine... 12:10 Let's see if you understand the distinction. 12:12 I actually once in a speech said, and I got a lot of 12:15 shocked people, I said, "There's way too much 12:17 religion in the world today. 12:19 Way too much religion. 12:22 But not enough spirituality." 12:25 The way I see that is that there are way too many people 12:31 believing in way too many religions and don't actually... 12:34 They believe, but they don't have their whole 12:37 heart and soul into it. 12:39 I mean, yes, there are a few in that religion that believe, 12:41 "Well, this is the right way. This is the only way." 12:45 But then I believe there are also people in that religion 12:47 who say, "Well, yeah, this might be the way, 12:49 but there might also be other ways." 12:52 Like, I mean, I've even heard it in church discussions 12:55 and discussions with friends on how that, yes, Christianity 12:59 is the way, but there also might be another way. 13:01 Wow, that's not so good. 13:03 Because that means they're uncertain. 13:04 But religion, a religious identity, 13:08 and they talk about identity politics, 13:10 without a spiritual sensibility that should go with that 13:15 means that it's just a political force, and then you fight 13:19 against someone else for holding something different. 13:21 True spirituality gives openness and charity and 13:25 care for other people. 13:26 And it's no threat to you that someone believes 13:28 something differently. 13:30 But it must be important to believe something, 13:33 to practice it, to hold it deep in your heart, 13:36 and to communicate that to others, isn't it? 13:38 Is that important to you? 13:40 Well yes, I believe religion is very, very important to me. 13:43 Well that's reassuring, son. 13:45 It should be important to all of us. 13:47 That's what religious liberty is about; 13:48 putting that into practice. 13:50 You know, we've got a lot to talk about on this; 13:53 religion verses spirituality. 13:55 We'll be back after a short break, so stay with us. |
Revised 2018-03-07