Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program
bringing you news, views,
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discussion, and insights
on religious liberty events
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and theory even in the
U.S. and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this program
is my son, Christopher Steed.
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He's still a
teenager, a young man.
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Sometimes listens to his dad,
and I know has some opinions
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on religious liberty.
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And you've traveled
with our family a few places.
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And I want to pick up on one of
the trips you may not remember.
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I think you were about twelve.
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You should remember.
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We went to Europe.
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- Remember Europe?
~ I remember Europe.
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I remember parts of it.
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- You remember Rome?
- I do remember Rome.
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It says all roads lead to Rome.
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We ended up in Rome.
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Drove around
through Switzerland.
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We actually went into
Italy, and then Venice,
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and then worked our way down.
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And we ended up in Rome.
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I even pointed out,
remember pointing out
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to you the seven hills.
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Not too big, but there
are seven hills around Rome.
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And there we saw all of
the monuments stretched out.
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And we spent a couple of days.
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~ I remember it was
hot. - And one of the things
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that I showed you, but
you probably don't remember,
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but it was significant to
me, was Pilates Staircase.
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I do remember.
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I believe we
walked up the staircase.
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- I believe we did do
that. ~ Yes, a marble staircase.
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And as we walked
up, there were pilgrims
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kneeling and doing it
one knee step at a time,
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praying all the way.
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Now this is
supposedly the same staircase
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as Pilate's
staircase in Jerusalem,
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which was destroyed by Rome.
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And I don't know if I
showed you at the time,
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but I've seen it
since on a trip to Rome,
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that there's the Arch of Titus,
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the general that
destroyed Jerusalem.
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And there's carvings there
that show them bringing back
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the candlesticks and
other treasures from the temple
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in Jerusalem to Rome
after destroying Jerusalem.
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But Pilate's Staircase is
very pivotal to the reformation.
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Because there was a certain
monk named Martin Luther,
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he had some personal
problems in his life,
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he had a great sense of guilt.
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He was trying to overcompensate
for a father that wanted a lot
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out of him, wanted
him to be a lawyer.
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So he was challenging his
dad to go into the priesthood.
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He then had problems
with feeling accepted by God.
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There's no question Martin
Luther had issues, as they say.
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And his abbot, I think it
was, thought that he could
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solve some of that
by sending Martin Luther
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on a pilgrimage to Rome.
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And he was quite bothered
to see the wealth of the church
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and the lack of religious
fervor in so many ways.
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And then on one occasion
he went to Pilate's Staircase,
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this rebuilt staircase from
the destruction of Jerusalem,
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supposedly, carried
and rebuilt in Rome.
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And the pilgrims would
go up one step at a time
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hoping to gain favor with God.
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And Martin Luther started
up those stairs on his knees.
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And halfway up he
suddenly remembered the text,
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"The just shall live by faith."
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~ Not by acts.
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And he leapt to his
feet, and supposedly that was
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the big moment
theologically where
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he started the reformation.
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Because he saw that
what the church was doing
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in selling time
out of purgatory,
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of making you confess
to the priest thinking that
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he had the route to
God, was all misdirected.
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So the
reformation was a big moment.
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And you've been to one of the
places where that kicked off.
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You've also been to Geneva
where another one of the great
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reformers, John Calvin, rose up.
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And at one stage
Calvin was even made basically
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the mayor of
Geneva and ruled it from a
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religious point of
view, which wasn't good.
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And sadly he
even used his power...
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Well, he didn't so much
use it, but he didn't stop the
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persecution of another religious
leader, Michael Servetus.
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And they put him to
death because he held
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different religion reasons.
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So the reformation was a
good move, but not everything
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that happened was great.
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But I do believe that so
much of what we hold today
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we owe to the reformation.
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Do you have that sense?
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I believe that most
of, actually most of all
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we believe that, yes it does tie
back to the reformation, yes.
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I don't know that you've
read it, and I need to make sure
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you read the
book, Great Controversy.
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~ I've read...
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You've probably
read parts of it.
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When I was in school, where
was that at, Huntingdon Academy,
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we read bits of it in class.
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It was either in the Bible
class or the English class.
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I can't remember
exactly which class it was.
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But we read through it and then
we had a test on it at the end.
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~ Good.
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And I remember reading through
it and it changed my perspective
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on some things.
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But it influenced
me in a very good way.
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I know that for sure.
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Well you know,
Seventh-day Adventists
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I think have a great position
in the book, Great Controversy.
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And it was written, or...
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It was written, but I can
even use the word, "assembled,"
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by Ellen White, who we
believe had spiritual insights.
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But this was put
together as a service,
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not just for the
church, but for all people.
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And if you look at
this book structurally,
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what it really is, is mostly
a collection of the history
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of God's dealings
through the years.
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And in particular there's
a lot of the church history
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in the medieval times
through the reformation.
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And it's not unique history.
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You can get it in history books,
but most people don't read that.
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So it's assembled here
to give a tunnel vision
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of religious truth
through the reformation
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and beyond to our day.
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And it impressed on
me when I read that book
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how much we owe, as
both a Seventh-day Adventist
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but as Christians in
general, at this time and place
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to the reformation.
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And you know, I deal
with religious liberty,
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and I got to tell you
I am really impressed,
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sometimes a little
frightened, by how at the moment
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the Catholic church is
ready to own the reformation.
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At the time, they were ready to
put Martin Luther on the stake.
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They would have gladly
burned him alive if they could.
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But he was
protected by the civil ruler
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in his part of Germany.
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And then eventually by
all the German princes.
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But at the moment, they're
saying that the reformation
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was the payoff of views
within the Catholic church
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that were bubbling
up to reform the church.
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That's not really true.
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By definition, all of
the reformers were from
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the Catholic context, but
they were rebelling against it.
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They weren't carrying forward
what Catholicism wanted to do.
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We take it further back,
that they were rediscovering
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what Christianity originally
was that through the ages
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the church in
general, and then as it became
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in the west the
Roman Catholic church,
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had forgotten and denied,
and sometimes even opposed.
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Do you another
figure you've heard me
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talk about, Oliver Cromwell?
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Yes. Many, many, many times.
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- One of my heroes. - Yes.
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You mentioned him
a few Sabbaths ago.
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We were at people's
house and we were talking,
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and you mentioned
him to the husband.
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Yeah, because I like to tell
Americans about Oliver Cromwell.
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English people from
England, Canada, and Australia,
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they know all
about Oliver Cromwell.
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Americans don't seem to.
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They don't realize that
100 years before American
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independence, in England
they had a religious civil war.
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I mean, a full scale civil war.
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And it was all
over the Puritans.
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And it started out a political
battle, but it soon turned into
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the Puritans fighting
against the king and his
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Catholic sympathizers.
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And they beat the
king, they took him prisoner,
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they put him on
trial, and they...
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The single thing he did that
made him an enemy of the state
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is when he was in trouble,
he plotted and planned to bring
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a Catholic army to save him.
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In a Protestant
country, that was just no good.
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So they cut off his head.
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And Oliver Cromwell
became the dictator of England.
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Not as bad as some dictators,
but it was direct rule.
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And the reason
I'm bringing this up,
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I don't know that
you know this, son.
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But when Oliver Cromwell
was ruling, and England was
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a strong country at that point,
he took on a lot of battles.
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And one of the worst things he
did was kill the Catholic Irish.
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He laid the problems for today.
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But during his reign, the
Waldensian situation developed.
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You know about that, remember?
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I do know about the Waldensians.
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Yeah, and I'm trying
to think if we went...
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No I don't think on our
trip we went to that area,
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but we drove past it nearby.
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But I've been
into the mountains,
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which is what,
"Waldenses," means;
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the mountain people.
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And they were being
persecuted by the Duke of Savoy,
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encouraged by Rome, to
get rid of these dissenters.
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And Oliver Cromwell, he
sent word to the Duke of Savoy,
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he said, "Unless you stop
persecuting the Waldenses,"
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he said, "I personally will
lead an English Protestant army
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to relieve them."
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And I think Adventists
particularly should know that.
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Because they read
about the Waldenses
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in, Great Controversy, right?
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Let me ask you a
leading question.
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Do you think of America
as a Protestant country,
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as you grow up here and
seek to discover this country
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you're a part of?
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I don't see it as a...
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I mean, I guess I do see
it as a Protestant country.
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But I see it more so as a
Christian country as well,
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because it's one of the main
religions in the United States.
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I remember seeing a pie
chart of the world religions
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that are in the United States,
and I remember just seeing this
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massive chunk and it
said, "Christianity."
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And I'm like, wow,
that's a massive chunk
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of the United States that
believes that Christianity
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is the main religion.
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Demographically,
yes, you're right,
00:11:09.43\00:11:11.33
it's still a Protestant country.
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And of course, it's not
necessary that it be Protestant.
00:11:16.87\00:11:19.57
We've got to keep that in mind.
00:11:19.61\00:11:20.94
It's a secular country, and
as we said once in a program
00:11:20.98\00:11:24.98
on the Treaty of Tripoli,
for all people, all religions.
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Right?
00:11:27.62\00:11:28.95
But it must mean
something that it changed
00:11:29.58\00:11:33.42
from mostly Protestant
to such a mixture now.
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Do you think it's important
to, sort of, rediscover
00:11:37.33\00:11:40.26
our history a bit?
00:11:40.30\00:11:41.66
I believe that, yes,
it is important to go back
00:11:41.70\00:11:44.57
and review our history and to
see where our roots came from.
00:11:44.60\00:11:48.30
But at the same time,
I believe it's good also
00:11:48.70\00:11:50.74
to look forward and to see
where our country is going,
00:11:50.77\00:11:54.34
whether good or bad.
00:11:55.18\00:11:56.85
So it's important
that it continue its
00:11:57.58\00:11:59.78
protection for all faiths.
00:11:59.81\00:12:01.18
- That's what
you're saying. ~ Yes, yes.
00:12:01.22\00:12:02.55
Yeah, I agree with that.
00:12:02.58\00:12:03.95
But we're
entering a difficult time.
00:12:06.69\00:12:08.52
And I often write
in Liberty Magazine...
00:12:08.56\00:12:10.53
Let's see if you
understand the distinction.
00:12:10.56\00:12:12.46
I actually once in a
speech said, and I got a lot of
00:12:12.89\00:12:15.63
shocked people, I
said, "There's way too much
00:12:15.66\00:12:17.47
religion in the world today.
00:12:17.50\00:12:19.10
Way too much religion.
00:12:19.27\00:12:20.67
But not enough spirituality."
00:12:22.47\00:12:24.31
The way I see that is that
there are way too many people
00:12:25.97\00:12:31.08
believing in way too many
religions and don't actually...
00:12:31.11\00:12:34.05
They believe, but
they don't have their whole
00:12:34.28\00:12:37.89
heart and soul into it.
00:12:37.92\00:12:39.25
I mean, yes, there are a few
in that religion that believe,
00:12:39.29\00:12:41.72
"Well, this is the right
way. This is the only way."
00:12:41.76\00:12:45.36
But then I believe there
are also people in that religion
00:12:45.39\00:12:47.63
who say, "Well, yeah,
this might be the way,
00:12:47.66\00:12:49.90
but there might
also be other ways."
00:12:49.93\00:12:52.47
Like, I mean, I've even
heard it in church discussions
00:12:52.50\00:12:54.64
and discussions with friends
on how that, yes, Christianity
00:12:55.54\00:12:59.47
is the way, but there
also might be another way.
00:12:59.51\00:13:01.81
Wow, that's not so good.
00:13:01.91\00:13:03.24
Because that
means they're uncertain.
00:13:03.28\00:13:04.61
But religion, a
religious identity,
00:13:04.95\00:13:08.28
and they talk
about identity politics,
00:13:08.32\00:13:10.05
without a spiritual sensibility
that should go with that
00:13:10.09\00:13:15.82
means that it's just a political
force, and then you fight
00:13:15.86\00:13:19.89
against someone else for
holding something different.
00:13:19.93\00:13:21.73
True spirituality gives
openness and charity and
00:13:21.76\00:13:25.20
care for other people.
00:13:25.23\00:13:26.60
And it's no threat to
you that someone believes
00:13:26.70\00:13:28.74
something differently.
00:13:28.77\00:13:30.11
But it must be
important to believe something,
00:13:30.91\00:13:33.88
to practice it, to
hold it deep in your heart,
00:13:33.91\00:13:36.14
and to communicate
that to others, isn't it?
00:13:36.44\00:13:38.41
Is that important to you?
00:13:38.71\00:13:40.05
Well yes, I believe religion
is very, very important to me.
00:13:40.32\00:13:43.12
Well that's reassuring, son.
00:13:43.82\00:13:45.35
It should be
important to all of us.
00:13:45.39\00:13:46.96
That's what
religious liberty is about;
00:13:47.16\00:13:48.62
putting that into practice.
00:13:48.66\00:13:49.99
You know, we've got a
lot to talk about on this;
00:13:50.23\00:13:52.99
religion verses spirituality.
00:13:53.03\00:13:55.36
We'll be back after a
short break, so stay with us.
00:13:55.40\00:13:58.23