Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you discussion,
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news, updates, and insights
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into religious liberty in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my special
guest on this program
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is someone near and dear to me,
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my own teenage
son Christopher Steed,
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an up and coming
young man with opinions.
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And I want to hear some of them.
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But let me just launch
off and set the scene, son.
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Couple of years ago, I took
you and your sister and my wife,
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and your mother, on
the 3ABN tour to Israel.
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Remember that? I was baptized.
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Absolutely.
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You baptized me
in the Jordan River.
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I baptized you
on that trip, yeah.
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But I think it gave
you sort of an insight
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into the whole
background of Christianity
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and the religious
reality today to this conflict,
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much of it centers
in the Middle East.
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And of course, not
long before this program,
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President Trump
basically threw a grenade
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into the world
religious situation
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by declaring that Jerusalem
is the capital of Israel.
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Now religious liberty is
a big and complicated topic,
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but tell me, is there any way
that that visit and that trip
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sort of gave you a new view
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of what it is to
stand up for your faith.
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Remember, we
stood on the mountain
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and looked over
into Syria, right?
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I do remember.
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It was not a clear enough day,
but they say, on a clear day,
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you can actually see Damascus
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from the Golan
Heights which are Israel now.
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And then we looked
across the Sea of Galilee,
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and that was Jordan,
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remember the cars
going back and forth?
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And those
nations are not friendly
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toward Israel now.
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Well, when we were there,
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I forgot where we
were when we were up.
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And I think it was when
we went to the Golan Heights,
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I remember looking out,
seeing the Sea of Galilee,
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being in the Red Sea, you know,
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being almost
everywhere Jesus went
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and seeing how
close everything was
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and realizing, "Well,"
I mean, "Jesus was here,
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I'm here now, what
does this mean to me?"
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Made you think more carefully
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then what it is to be
a Christian, didn't it?
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Especially when we
walked to the River Jordan
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and I was baptized,
I was like, you know,
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Jesus may have been baptized
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at the exact same
spot as I have been.
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And it touched me deeply.
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It made me think on the bus
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on the ride home
after I got baptized,
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I was thinking, you know,
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"Wow, Jesus was
baptized in that river,
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in that same river."
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I don't think anybody knows
exactly where he was baptized.
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But we know it was in
the River Jordan, isn't it?
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Yeah, we know it
was in the River Jordan.
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And it very likely was...
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The Jordan flows out
of the Sea of Galilee
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and down towards Jerusalem.
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So there's only
a few miles. Yeah.
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And it likely was
where it was a bit deeper,
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so it couldn't have
been more than a mile
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or two from where we were.
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I mean, it might have
been exactly the same spot.
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That's the tradition
that it was that spot.
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Yeah, and I just...
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But you were following in
the pattern that he's set.
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And I just
remember thinking, you know,
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"A few miles away
from here up on a hill
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is where as well he was
murdered for standing...
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For saying what he believed."
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And I was thinking, you know,
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even nowadays in
certain countries
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how people are being
murdered in the Middle East.
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I mean, I've heard
stories from people
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or missionaries out there how...
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I remember a friend of mine,
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his father and mother
are missionaries in China.
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And then I remember
another friend of mine,
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his parents are out
in Vietnam right now.
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A lot of my friends' parents
are out being missionaries
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and I hear the stories of them,
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you know, having
to hide their Bibles,
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having to walk around
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and be the
people where they are.
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And even if they're
asked if they're a Christian,
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they have to say no
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because they're
scared for their lives.
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Well, that's a personal decision
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someone has to make,
sometimes you keep quiet.
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Yes.
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It's another thing to
deny your faith, you know?
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Remember this story in
the New Testament of Peter,
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the Catholic Church
makes an awful lot of Peter,
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you know, he's the
first Pope they say.
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Yes.
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There's no real textual evidence
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that he was given
the full authority,
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but there's no
question from the Bible account,
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Peter was the
leader in Jerusalem,
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and in many
ways, he was sort of...
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I don't know of the favorite...
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John was the
favorite of Jesus. Absolutely.
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The disciple who
Jesus loved. Yeah.
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But Peter was
sort of the go-to man.
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You know, the
leader among the...
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Rough and tough,
ready to set his foot out
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and say, "I believe
this and this is why!"
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Yeah.
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You know, but
it's also interesting,
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Peter, Jesus told him off
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once for saying the wrong thing.
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Yes. He did.
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You know, Peter says,
"This won't happen to You.
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You're not going to die."
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Then Jesus says,
"Get behind me, Satan."
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Satan, yes.
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He didn't mean Peter was satanic
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but Satan was
speaking through him.
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Yeah. These were Satan's ideas.
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But on another occasion,
this is what I'm building to,
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Peter says, "I would
never betray You, Lord.
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Never! I'd die for You."
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And the rooster
crows three times.
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But we say ourselves, you know,
"I want to be a strong witness.
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I'll suffer
persecution if need be."
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And I hope that we mean it,
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but we're all pretty
weak and there are times
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and even missionaries
perhaps in India or China
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or somewhere,
there's been times,
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to save their own
life, they'll say,
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"Oh, no, I'm not a
Christian." That's sad.
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And I think they
need to repent from that.
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But in theory, a good Christian,
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a good person of any faith
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will own up to their
faith and witness for it
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no matter what the cost.
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And remember, Peter denied Jesus
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three times in one night
after he said never, you know.
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But Jesus forgave
him for it. He did.
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And in my personal
view, I think He'll forgive
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those of us who...
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I mean, even under pressure...
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I mean, sometimes I'll give in
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and say
whatever, but it's not...
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Like, "I would
never deny my faith."
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I mean, I've
heard people say that
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and then as soon as
they get under pressure,
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they're like, "No, no.
I'm not really a Christian."
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But I believe in my
own heart, you know,
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I believe someone can
have a gun pointed at my head
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and say, "Are you a Christian?"
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And I would look at
them straight in the eyes
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and say, "Yes,
I am a Christian."
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I mean, even if, then, a bullet
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does go through
my head, I will...
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Well, that's a
good determination.
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I will die saying
that I'm a Christian
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and that I believe
that God is the one.
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You know, the Bible says,
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"The spirit is willing
but the flesh is weak."
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And it's been
proven over the years
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how weak the flesh is.
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And I've got an example,
not just from Christianity,
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in World War...
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Well, all the
World Wars and all wars
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where prisoners are taken
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and some of
those tortures applied.
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And we've done it in Guantanamo.
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It's sad, the US
hasn't yet repudiated that,
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but it's pure
and simple torture.
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Like one of the...
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Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,
a bad guy I'm quite sure,
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we waterboarded
him like 80 times.
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That's 80 near-death experiences
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apart from various other things,
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with doctors standing
by like the Mengeles of...
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You ever heard of Mengele?
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The Mengeles of our time
to make sure he doesn't die.
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Yeah. They're
not doctors to help.
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They're to keep him
alive for more torture.
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You know, those sort of tortures
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are part of our modern world.
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And the US of
course has entered into it,
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but it's hardly
only with the US.
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And most times,
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it's been shown
that human beings
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can be broken down by
excessive physical force
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and psychological manipulation.
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And I don't really think
that, in the simplest sense,
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to cave under that
is to deny your faith,
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that's to weaken.
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And going back
to the reformation.
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You remember we were in Oxford?
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I do remember
going to Oxford, yes.
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And do you remember
there was a statue there
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for where a couple of the heroes
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had been burned at the stake?
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I pointed it out to you.
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I don't remember
exactly where it was,
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but I do remember you
pointing out that statue.
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Yeah, Latimer and Ridley,
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I think, were the
ones, they were burned.
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And one of them
had denied his faith
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under torture a
few weeks earlier.
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And then of course
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when he was over the
pain was sorry for it
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and reasserted his
determination to die.
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And he wanted to die.
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I mean, he was so
committed at that point,
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he pretty much wanted to
die to atone for his betrayal.
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And I always
thought that's very sad
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because he was feeling
culpable for his weakness...
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Yeah. A weakness we all have.
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But to be willing to
be faithful to the end,
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that's what God wants.
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And then we have to
pray for the strength,
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and He'll give
a lot of strength,
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but all flesh, at
the end of the day,
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is able to be intimidated
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and manipulated
by pain by trial.
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Even Job, and I
love the Book of Job.
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God said he's a
righteous man and upright.
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But Job cursed the
day he was born He did.
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When he was under pain.
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And he accused
God of harassing him.
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But God didn't do it.
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But it says he
kept his integrity.
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And we can do that.
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We can, absolutely. Yeah.
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You know, I was a young man.
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You know, I was young
once too, a lot of temptations
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and ups and downs in your faith.
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And you can't let
these personal defeats
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play into the devil's idea
that you're not good enough,
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you're not gonna make it.
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Of course you're gonna make it,
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of course you
can rise above them.
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You can be a
strong witness for faith,
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there's no question.
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I heard a story
from a friend of mine
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who lived in
Nepal for a few years.
00:10:01.20\00:10:05.23
And he lived as a very
meager, poor person there,
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working like a laborer.
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And he told me stories
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of how just
getting up in the morning
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and not being
able to feel his legs
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from how cold it was.
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I mean, he told me,
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"At times, I
didn't even believe that
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that there was
anything that I could do
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because the people
there were stubborn,
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wouldn't bend," but
finally, after a while,
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he literally would just wake up,
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and the first
thing in the morning,
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the first thing he
would do, he didn't care
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if there was
snow next to his bed,
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he would kneel down
and pray every morning.
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And at the end of...
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I think he was there
for two months or something.
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I don't remember
exactly all the details.
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But he told me at the
end of his mission there,
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there was...
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I believe he said
15 or 20 of the men
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in the village came to him
00:10:58.92\00:11:00.66
and thanked him for being there,
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and thanked him
for witnessing to them,
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thanked him for giving
them his point of view.
00:11:04.66\00:11:08.66
And they asked him
would he stay longer
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and baptize them.
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And so he stayed on,
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I think I believe
it was another month
00:11:14.04\00:11:15.37
or month and a
half or half a month,
00:11:15.40\00:11:16.74
I can't remember exactly.
00:11:16.77\00:11:18.11
And I remember, he tells
me he and his family baptized,
00:11:18.14\00:11:21.81
I believe it
was 34 people total,
00:11:21.84\00:11:24.85
men and women. That's wonderful.
00:11:24.88\00:11:26.28
It's very hard
to influence people
00:11:26.31\00:11:28.38
in that part of the world.
00:11:28.42\00:11:29.75
And now he gets a
letter every month from...
00:11:29.78\00:11:33.19
They call him the village chief,
00:11:33.22\00:11:35.92
the leader of the village.
00:11:35.96\00:11:37.53
And now they've
built a full church.
00:11:37.56\00:11:41.50
And now over half the village
goes to church every Sabbath.
00:11:41.53\00:11:46.43
Wonderful. Wonderful.
00:11:46.47\00:11:50.57
I don't think I've told
you about Sabbath in Nepal.
00:11:50.61\00:11:53.41
And I don't think, on
this television program,
00:11:53.44\00:11:55.51
I've even shared, but in 1988,
00:11:55.54\00:11:59.01
with your mother, I
went to Nepal to interview
00:11:59.05\00:12:02.72
an Adventist doctor
and to get his life story
00:12:02.75\00:12:05.15
which I read up in book
called The Last Mountain.
00:12:05.19\00:12:07.92
Which I have in my
room on my book shelf.
00:12:07.96\00:12:09.39
Yeah. And I've read it.
00:12:09.42\00:12:11.66
And that really
impressed me to go to Nepal.
00:12:11.69\00:12:14.30
Even to this day,
00:12:14.33\00:12:15.66
Nepal is sort of a
closed country in many ways.
00:12:15.70\00:12:19.23
It was a combination
Hindu and Buddhist culture,
00:12:19.27\00:12:24.11
on the upper north
of India near Tibet.
00:12:24.14\00:12:28.34
You know, you can
see from where we stayed,
00:12:28.38\00:12:31.05
just on the
outskirts of Kathmandu,
00:12:31.08\00:12:32.51
you can see the Mount Everest.
00:12:32.55\00:12:34.45
In fact, flying into
Nepal, we saw Mount Everest
00:12:34.48\00:12:37.62
way before we arrived there.
00:12:37.65\00:12:39.45
We're at a cruising altitude
00:12:39.49\00:12:41.46
and suddenly here's
this mountain sticking up
00:12:41.49\00:12:43.22
through the cloud,
higher than we fly.
00:12:43.26\00:12:44.96
Yeah. Amazing place.
00:12:44.99\00:12:47.90
And most people
don't realize that
00:12:47.93\00:12:50.17
Nepal has always
been a difficult culture
00:12:50.20\00:12:53.20
to reach with
Christianity certainly.
00:12:53.23\00:12:57.07
But they've had horrible
political events recently.
00:12:57.11\00:13:01.41
I think it's
called the Shining Way,
00:13:01.44\00:13:02.88
Buddhist Marxist
00:13:02.91\00:13:07.78
revolution reached a peak.
00:13:07.82\00:13:10.42
There was a crazy murder
where the royal family...
00:13:10.45\00:13:13.86
One of the
royal family killed...
00:13:13.89\00:13:15.22
I think it was 60
members of the royal family.
00:13:15.26\00:13:17.26
It was just a
massacre of the ruling class.
00:13:17.29\00:13:20.36
And then the
guerillas finally took over.
00:13:20.40\00:13:22.56
It's basically a
Marxist regime at the moment.
00:13:22.60\00:13:26.84
And yet among it all,
00:13:26.87\00:13:28.20
people between
all those cultural
00:13:28.24\00:13:30.67
and political events,
00:13:30.71\00:13:32.57
there are missionaries
that are working there.
00:13:32.61\00:13:35.64
And I will never forget,
00:13:35.68\00:13:37.98
never forget
coming in from Kathmandu
00:13:38.01\00:13:40.98
on a little bus
00:13:41.02\00:13:42.35
where there were
chickens on the floor.
00:13:42.38\00:13:44.15
You've told me...
Chickens on the floor...
00:13:44.19\00:13:46.15
And people
squatting there naked...
00:13:46.19\00:13:48.22
Not naked but barely
clothed, looking at us.
00:13:48.26\00:13:51.23
I was like,
"Where are we going?"
00:13:51.26\00:13:52.59
And we drove up into the
hills to this little village.
00:13:52.63\00:13:55.33
They dumped us in
the middle of town.
00:13:55.36\00:13:59.10
And I didn't know
where we were going.
00:13:59.13\00:14:00.47
I was looking for this hospital,
00:14:00.50\00:14:01.84
Scheer Memorial Hospital
and trying to ask around
00:14:01.87\00:14:06.04
'cause most of them
don't speak English.
00:14:06.07\00:14:07.94
And I can remember
walking up this little hill
00:14:07.98\00:14:10.58
toward this dispensary.
00:14:10.61\00:14:12.51
It was like
something out of a dream.
00:14:12.55\00:14:14.78
But to see that hospital,
this doctor I interviewed,
00:14:14.82\00:14:17.92
other Christian
doctors caring for their needs
00:14:17.95\00:14:20.86
and there's misshapen legs
and arms and limbs and diseases
00:14:20.89\00:14:25.63
that will curl your
hair and yet they're showing
00:14:25.66\00:14:28.16
Christ to those people.
00:14:28.20\00:14:29.66
That's really
what takes the guts.
00:14:29.70\00:14:31.93
It does, yes.
00:14:31.97\00:14:33.37
In many ways more than,
you know, gritting your teeth
00:14:33.40\00:14:36.71
while they pull
your fingernails out.
00:14:36.74\00:14:38.87
That sort of momentary
pain can overwhelm anyone.
00:14:38.91\00:14:41.28
But to consistently
stick with the witness
00:14:41.31\00:14:44.25
against opposition,
cultural and legal...
00:14:44.28\00:14:46.65
And in Nepal, still,
they don't want missionaries.
00:14:46.68\00:14:50.52
They often get ejected
00:14:50.55\00:14:51.89
or if they go
home for a holiday,
00:14:51.92\00:14:53.25
not allowed back in.
00:14:53.29\00:14:54.62
So it's very hard to stay there.
00:14:54.66\00:14:56.89
We'll be back
after a short break,
00:14:56.93\00:14:58.56
stay with us.
00:14:58.59\00:14:59.93
Good discussions,
interesting analogies
00:14:59.96\00:15:01.70
and illustrations of
religious freedom and practice.
00:15:01.73\00:15:04.97