Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
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that brings you up-to-date news,
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views, information, analysis
of religious liberty events
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in the United States
and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Ed Woods III, a PARL,
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which is Public Affairs
and Religious Liberty worker
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and a leader of some repute.
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You're based in Chicago
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and living in Lansing, Michigan,
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but you deal with...
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Well, you deal with
all of North America,
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I've discovered that,
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but your immediate area
is in the Great Lakes region.
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Right, Lake Region Conference.
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And I'm happy to
really put out a vision
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that our
conference administration
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and church has pooled
with regards to Public Affairs
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and Religious Liberty.
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Public affairs, in
addition to being nice,
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we also look at justice issues.
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Right.
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There's a book talking about
the readings and teachings,
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you know, of social justice
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because so many times
when you hear justice issues,
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people
automatically think about race,
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but there's other
things besides race.
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Yes, race is an
important component,
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but there's gender
issues, there's classism issues,
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there's disability issues.
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And when we think
about the oppressed,
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you know, the discarded,
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the brokenhearted, and the poor,
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well, Christ has shown so
much love that actuated Him.
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You know, one of the
things that Ellen White says
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she is surprised
that she doesn't see
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that love in people
who say they love Christ
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but only see that
concern as it relates to others.
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Well, this is good.
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So let me
challenge you with something
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that's very contemporary.
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For the second time
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that I can remember in a big way
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since the '70s,
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the issue of
illegals and immigration
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and the stranger
within our community
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has become a huge issue.
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And this new
administration have decided to,
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if not remove them,
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then threaten them with removal.
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Right. Threaten
them with removal.
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And back in the '70s, remember,
churches were distinguished
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for creating
places of sanctuary.
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Correct.
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They had literally
harbored them in the church.
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And people don't think about it,
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but the
conventions of the medieval era
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where the church was
exempt from civil law,
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in fact, going back
to the Old Testament,
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you could take
refuge in a church
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so they wouldn't come in.
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And that
continued into the '70s.
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Now at the present,
many people of faith
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and of a sense of
justice are troubled
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by what we're doing,
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but not too many people
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are moving out to
do anything about it.
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There's these sanctuary cities
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where they have sort of
from the noses, at federal law.
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But what do you
think we should do?
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Should we be involved in this?
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Well, I guess, I'm really...
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When I think about
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what's happening
with immigration,
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I'm now putting on my role
as a father and as a parent.
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And, you know, I'm not gonna,
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you know, advocate
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for a wide
spreading of breaking law.
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But also...
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It's the balance.
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It's push me pull you
sort of an argument, isn't it.
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But what are we doing,
you know, speaking of Dhaka,
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you know, where you
have immigrant children
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who came here
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because their parents were here,
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and now they're being threatened
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to go back.
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But it's still a matter of law
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and it's still a
matter of justice
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or something that's right.
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You can have law that's
written in black and white
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but it may not be truly just.
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Well, I think we
need to work on...
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I mean, that's where
we have to really work
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with our public
policy solutions.
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Obviously, we have one person
that represents the church,
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the Congress.
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But if you're really looking
at making a change in Congress,
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it's local.
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I mean, this is where
the local church members
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have to get involved
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because they vote for
their representatives,
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they vote for
their 12 US senators.
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And I would really
think the church really needs
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to take an active disposition
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to finding what
are the solutions.
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These are real
people with real stories.
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And I would hate
to lose my child,
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any one of my children.
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I love Megan and Michael dearly.
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But if something was to happen
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where they were
being pulled away...
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You know, and the thing is,
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you know, what's
really happening here.
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You know, Ian Haney
Lopez couple years ago
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wrote a book called
Dog Whistle Politics.
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And he used
images to create fear,
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the images that create
fear in American society.
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So you can imagine when
they think of terrorists,
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they have a Muslim
with turban on their head.
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They manipulated it.
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And every time they say
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terrorist, terrorist, terrorist,
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you think of no one else
but a Muslim with a turban.
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And the same things
happen with illegal immigration.
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When they say
illegal immigration
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and they talk
about people taking jobs,
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they don't show a picture
of a Muslim with a turban,
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they show a
picture of a Mexican.
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And they're saying
they're taking the jobs,
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but if you really look at it,
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like what jobs are
they really taking away,
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people are not
going for the jobs.
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I mean, we're bringing
in immigrants to take jobs
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that people don't wanna take
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because there's no
available workforce.
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You're fishing towards
the answers of that certainly.
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None of these
things are in a vacuum.
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And when you're
talking about public policy,
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there's many antecedents.
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And my wife and I
lived in Idaho for a while,
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and you could see there
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the clear need and the collusion
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in this whole process
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that the farmers were bringing
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in large numbers
of illegals to do
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just basic menial
weeding and so on.
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You'd see them
fanning out over the horizon,
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all old cars there,
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goodness knows
what they paid them,
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not even minimum wage.
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So they were
filling an economic need
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but yet the laws were otherwise.
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And so the
business interests in the US
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clearly have winked
at this for decades.
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So the issue narrowly speaking
is not is it right for these...
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or are the people
here legally or illegally,
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it's part of a bigger picture.
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But what I want to focus on,
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and I have
strong opinions on this,
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Christians aren't
called to be lawbreakers.
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There's no question on that.
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But there are some
laws that are not moral.
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There are some laws
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that we are
actually called to disobey
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if they
contradict the laws of God.
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That's exactly right.
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But that aside,
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we have to be
guided by our conscience.
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There may be times, and
this might be one of them,
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where it would be foolish
for the church to take a stand
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because it's so
politically fraught.
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There's this
dynamic of the country
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and the business
interest wanting it
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even though
they're rejecting them.
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But you might be
called by conscience
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to stand up for
them and do something
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that puts you on the
wrong side of the law.
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I don't have a
problem with that at all.
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But you need to realize
you take the consequence.
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I mean if you're gonna break
the law, that's exactly right,
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you have to be willing
to accept the consequences.
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Where a lot of what we
do on religious liberty,
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I listen to it, and
it's giving the idea
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that a way will carved for you,
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constitutionally or whatever
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or through the legal system,
to do what you're called to do.
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You are called
to do it regardless
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of whether the
way is clear for you.
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And I think that's
the difference between
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"what if" faith
and "even if" faith.
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And we see with Daniel
and the three Hebrew boys,
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they had an "even if" faith.
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You know, we're
not going to bow down
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to your graven images.
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And our God is
able to deliver us,
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but if not, we still want...
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And we need some
more "even if" faith.
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We got get rid of this
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"what if" and have
some "even if" faith.
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People, there's
no Yellow Brick Road
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when you go down the
path of public affairs,
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religious liberty,
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you may lose your life.
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People have been persecuted
and have died by the sword
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or died by other means
standing up for their faith.
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So let's not just
think it's just gonna be,
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you know, Dorothy dancing
down the Yellow Brick Road.
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It's not gonna be
a Yellow Brick Road.
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Look at Stephen, lost his
life, look at James, you know...
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Absolutely,
what I think exactly.
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James, he lost his life.
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And the thing of the
story with regards to James,
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you know, if you
hear some of the rhetoric
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that Herod was talking about,
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he wanted to make the
Jewish faith great again.
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And so he was
trying to find favor
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with the Jewish
population, and he thought...
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Not only did he
kill James by the sword
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but he also put Peter in prison.
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But they didn't wanna kill
him because it was the Passover.
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And so, you know, look at it,
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for all of a
sudden they got religious,
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but they were
planning to kill him.
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Yeah. But the Lord intervened.
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But his whole idea was
to make Jewish, the faith,
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great again so he
could have more...
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how can I say, more
support from the populace.
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That's an interesting
explanation of that moment
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in the early
Christian church, absolutely.
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And so when I hear make
Christianity great again,
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you know, I'm like,
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"Well, what does
that really mean?"
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Because I know what it
meant in the time of Herod
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but what does that
mean here in today's society
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when we hear that
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and who does that really impact.
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And I look at it not only
from a religious standpoint,
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I look at it from
a racial standpoint,
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I look at it from
a class standpoint,
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I look at it from
a gender standpoint,
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and I also look at it
from my thought standpoint,
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you know, what does that mean
in today's contemporary times.
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And so people are
right to be skeptical,
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they're right to
question the modus,
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and we need to have
more diversity of thought
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because what we're
seeing is pictures of diversity
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but they're homogeneous
when it comes to thinking
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and that's a very
dangerous for our position.
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And we were talking earlier,
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people being
corralled into lines of thought
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under the rubric that
this is a free country.
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Yes, it's free
on a certain level,
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but the chance to think
freely is being taken from us
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in many subtle and
not so subtle ways.
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And not only thinking freely
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but also being
innovative in creativity
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as it relates to ministry.
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And that's
something that I think
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the Public
Affairs Religious Liberty
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has an opportunity to do.
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When we're looking at
what's really taking place,
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you know, people
are taking surveys
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as to whether or not the
Bible is the Word of God.
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I'm like, "Okay, so we
vote in a democratic society
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whether or not the Bible...
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We're just gonna do
away with the Bible?"
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I mean... I'm not
keen on these surveys.
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I can remember
years ago in Australia
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I ran a youth program
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and I brought in a
group called the God's Squad,
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they were a
Christian motorcycle club.
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Okay.
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Not Seventh-day Adventists,
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but it was a
Seventh-day Adventists meeting.
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And they come
burbling down the main highway
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and pull into the parking lot,
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and leather jackets, all coming,
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and their leader, I
remember, John Smith...
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This was many years ago,
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he's probably
dead now, he was...
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May or may be not,
but he'd be an old man.
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And unfortunately
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he chose to poke
Adventists in the eye a bit,
00:10:56.69\00:10:58.69
he didn't say anything by name,
00:10:58.72\00:11:00.79
but he said, you know,
there's more to witnessing...
00:11:00.82\00:11:02.16
'Cause he told how
they went to the pubs
00:11:02.19\00:11:03.53
and all of the rest.
00:11:03.56\00:11:04.89
"More to witnessing
00:11:04.93\00:11:06.26
than filling
out questionnaires,"
00:11:06.29\00:11:07.63
he said.
00:11:07.66\00:11:09.00
And at that time,
00:11:09.03\00:11:10.37
we were going
around door to door
00:11:10.40\00:11:11.73
taking health questionnaires.
00:11:11.77\00:11:13.10
What questionnaires?
00:11:13.13\00:11:14.47
It wasn't wrong,
00:11:14.50\00:11:15.84
but it didn't substitute
for real witnessing in a way.
00:11:15.87\00:11:17.21
But the question is
what do we do with them.
00:11:17.24\00:11:18.57
I mean, I did a Public Affairs
00:11:18.61\00:11:19.94
and Religious Liberty in Dallas,
00:11:19.97\00:11:21.31
and they had no solicitation
and no questionnaires
00:11:21.34\00:11:23.81
because they said people
would come and take surveys,
00:11:23.85\00:11:26.72
they would come
and ask information,
00:11:26.75\00:11:28.58
but then they would
do nothing about it.
00:11:28.62\00:11:31.59
So therefore, they say,
00:11:31.62\00:11:32.95
"Stop coming because
you're not helping us."
00:11:32.99\00:11:35.82
In the Bible it's very clear
00:11:35.86\00:11:37.19
that we are to
speak up for those
00:11:37.23\00:11:39.09
who cannot speak for themselves
00:11:39.13\00:11:41.50
and defend the rights
of all who are destitute,
00:11:41.53\00:11:44.17
speak up and judge fairly,
00:11:44.20\00:11:45.97
defend the rights of
the poor and the needy.
00:11:46.00\00:11:48.27
We have a biblical mandate
00:11:48.30\00:11:50.91
responsibility to
advocate for the poor,
00:11:50.94\00:11:54.28
for the needy, and to speak up.
00:11:54.31\00:11:56.21
So, yes, in addition to
doing community services,
00:11:56.24\00:11:59.71
we have a responsibility
00:11:59.75\00:12:01.38
through Public
Affairs Religious Liberty
00:12:01.42\00:12:03.89
to speak up and to advocate.
00:12:03.92\00:12:05.82
I mean, there are folks
00:12:05.85\00:12:07.19
who cannot
advocate for themselves,
00:12:07.22\00:12:09.06
who cannot navigate the system.
00:12:09.09\00:12:10.43
Give our voice to the powerless.
00:12:10.46\00:12:12.59
And we have an
opportunity to do so
00:12:12.63\00:12:15.10
and also to make
some suggestions.
00:12:15.13\00:12:16.63
And I think you can
see evidence of that.
00:12:16.67\00:12:18.10
I mean, I think he's a great man
00:12:18.13\00:12:19.50
Bishop Tutu in
South Africa there,
00:12:19.53\00:12:21.14
he functions that way.
00:12:21.17\00:12:22.60
He functioned well,
Dr. Martin Luther King,
00:12:22.64\00:12:24.57
you know, Gandhi, Mother Teresa,
00:12:24.61\00:12:26.44
but I'm like these are great,
but where are the Adventists?
00:12:26.47\00:12:29.84
Well, where are the Christians?
00:12:29.88\00:12:32.61
You know, they can't just come.
00:12:32.65\00:12:36.38
We have some
situations in today's society
00:12:36.42\00:12:40.19
where we need Adventists,
not blacks, not whites,
00:12:40.22\00:12:43.49
but Christians who
are Seventh-day Adventists
00:12:43.53\00:12:45.99
to speak up and to
address some of the social ills
00:12:46.03\00:12:49.76
that are
plaguing our communities.
00:12:49.80\00:12:52.00
And we have a
responsibility to do that
00:12:52.03\00:12:54.54
that we have passively
00:12:54.57\00:12:56.64
taken a discretionary
response in saying,
00:12:56.67\00:12:58.87
"Well, when do we respond?
00:12:58.91\00:13:00.24
We have this
incident, we have this incident,
00:13:00.28\00:13:01.61
we have this
incident, we have this incident,
00:13:01.64\00:13:02.98
we can't just give a
statement for everything."
00:13:03.01\00:13:04.35
And I'm like, no...
00:13:04.38\00:13:05.71
We agreed before,
00:13:05.75\00:13:07.08
a statement maybe
isn't wrong in itself,
00:13:07.12\00:13:08.45
but a statement
in itself is nothing.
00:13:08.48\00:13:09.82
But where is the action?
00:13:09.85\00:13:11.19
Especially, when
no one much hears it.
00:13:11.22\00:13:12.55
And where is the local church?
00:13:12.59\00:13:13.92
And my thing is you can't go out
00:13:13.96\00:13:15.29
in the community and
expect to build to church
00:13:15.32\00:13:17.23
passing out tracks
on a seasonal basis.
00:13:17.26\00:13:19.59
You got to have
that relationship
00:13:19.63\00:13:21.56
and they got to know that
God is our refuge and strength,
00:13:21.60\00:13:24.83
a very present help in the
time of trouble at your church.
00:13:24.87\00:13:27.84
And we are in
the time of trouble.
00:13:27.87\00:13:29.54
You don't have to be a
Bible reading Christian
00:13:29.57\00:13:32.37
or believer to see
these are troublous times.
00:13:32.41\00:13:35.81
And then we're like,
00:13:35.84\00:13:37.18
"Well, I don't know what to do?"
00:13:37.21\00:13:38.55
But the Bible says very clearly,
00:13:38.58\00:13:39.91
"Learn to do
right," in Isaiah 1:17,
00:13:39.95\00:13:42.38
"Seek justice,
defend the oppressed.
00:13:42.42\00:13:45.35
Take up the cause
of the fatherless,
00:13:45.39\00:13:46.99
plead the case of the widow."
00:13:47.02\00:13:48.39
Let me tell you a true story.
00:13:48.42\00:13:49.76
This is the... After the break.
00:13:49.79\00:13:51.13
After the break, I
tell you a true story.
00:13:51.16\00:13:52.49
We'll be right back.
00:13:52.53\00:13:53.86
We're gonna take a
short break. Stay with us.
00:13:53.90\00:13:55.23