Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000374B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with Ed Wood we were in fine song. 00:13 Let me tell little bit about the Johnson, 00:15 you know, and my concern is... 00:16 I want to see if you want to pick up 00:18 on the Johnson Amendment. 00:19 Well, you're hearing when I call, 00:22 you know, with this, you know, I wanna say this respectfully. 00:28 You're hearing what I hearing now coded language 00:30 fire and fury. 00:32 You know, this type of language, 00:35 you know, kind of concern I had. 00:40 You know, when we're talking about, 00:42 you know, North Korea 00:43 and how we're using biblical language 00:46 in a modern society and what that means, 00:50 you know, to people because that, 00:51 you know, it puts a different, for me I don't see... 00:55 I believe God has wrath, but God is also merciful. 00:59 And He wants us all to come, He wants none of us to perish, 01:02 but all would come through to repentance. 01:05 Well, one of the friends of Joab, he says, 01:08 "You're all full of the wrath of God," remember? 01:10 Yeah. 01:11 And correctly he was telling him for that, 01:13 but when you heard the president use that language 01:17 and there's a political, 01:19 international political context, 01:20 I think it was ill advised but it's explainable. 01:23 But didn't you think of Revelation 13? 01:27 Of course. 01:28 I think it's relatively easy to identify 01:31 the lamb like beast 01:33 that becomes a little dominant toward the end of time 01:38 and it says, "He brings fire down 01:39 from heaven in the sight of men." 01:41 And I just thought that was very inappropriate 01:45 with regards to, you know, a dialogue with another leader, 01:50 you know, from another country. 01:51 And, you know, I know there's a group of pastors 01:56 that he has surrounded himself with that he listens to... 01:58 Yeah, that's a good point, I hadn't thought of it that way 02:00 he may have been sort of echoing 02:02 the type of language that they used. 02:04 And then how they're not, 02:05 you know, they were very quiet and late 02:08 when it came to Charlottesville for me. 02:10 You know, in terms of being the consciousness of the country, 02:13 in terms of who is aligned themselves with, 02:15 you saw more responsibility and more authority 02:18 from the business leaders resigning off of his council 02:22 than you heard from this group of pastors 02:25 that are supposed to be advising him 02:27 and you're like, well, you're supposed to be 02:29 the conscience of America, the conscience of, 02:32 you know, speaking out against hate and bigotry 02:35 in Charlottesville and you're not doing it. 02:38 You know what happened here, 02:40 you know what really is your true role. 02:42 Is your true role to get an agenda, 02:45 a political agenda across, or is your role to make sure 02:50 that America has a moral conscience? 02:53 And I'm really kind of concerned 02:56 when you have a political agenda 02:59 or a moral agenda pushed by religious leaders, 03:03 and they can't clearly and articulate 03:06 speaking truth to power and we're taking our cues 03:10 from a business community 03:11 as it relates to Charlottesville. 03:13 I read a lot but nobody has remarked 03:15 on this in this region, what you're saying is correct. 03:17 But nobody's remarked 03:19 on a historical antecedent into this. 03:21 The Reverend Billy Graham still alive I think, 03:23 but well advanced in years, but in his earlier iteration 03:27 was the spiritual advisor to several presidents. 03:30 Right. 03:32 And the types have come out of some of his discussions 03:34 with the Nixon administration 03:37 and they will curl you hair, right? 03:40 He invades against Jews big time 03:44 and he recommends bombing 03:45 and wholesale slaughter in Vietnam, right? 03:49 I believe that he set a bad model 03:52 and I've actually heard him say since that he's basically 03:56 maybe disavowed is the wrong word, 03:58 he's seen that was a bad dynamic. 04:01 But I believe that he did what I think is going on now. 04:05 He was in close to the center of power 04:08 and to maintain that power 04:09 he became part of the political problem. 04:13 He forgot that he was, his entree 04:16 was because he was a minister of the gospel, 04:18 and he became a political operative. 04:20 And I really believe the religious 04:21 right have struck a deal with this administration 04:24 which is reasonable, that's what administrations do. 04:26 He made statements of good faith 04:28 to uphold their religious sensibility 04:31 and even their agenda, fine. 04:33 But I think to maintain that they are along for a rocky road 04:37 that is taking them already places 04:39 that I'm not sure pastors should go. 04:42 Like one of them said, "He may not be perfect, 04:45 but he's ours." 04:47 And that was very, very telling. 04:49 I seem to remember someone said that at the Council of Nicea. 04:53 That was very, very, you know, telling, 04:56 you know, in terms of just saying that 04:58 in terms, you know, the character 05:00 and the things that they want to deal with. 05:01 I mean, we shouldn't criticize the president, 05:03 that isn't really the point, 05:05 but he's not a natural champion for the people of faith. 05:10 And they should think his willingness 05:12 to help their agenda, but shouldn't equate 05:14 his agenda with theirs 05:16 and that's what's about to happen. 05:17 Yeah, but not only that they should be able 05:20 to speak truth to power when it comes to morality 05:23 regardless of their protocol agenda. 05:26 And I think what is getting kind of scary 05:29 is when your motives are not right, 05:32 you can get exposed. 05:34 And I know they're looking 05:36 to get Supreme Court justices approved 05:38 and with regards to abortion and some of these other things, 05:41 but if we really look at what true religious liberty 05:46 is about is the ability to worship 05:48 to the dictates of your conscience 05:51 not the conscience of what you feel 05:54 I should be worshipping for. 05:56 And everybody is different, 05:58 and the thing is this is not a collective thing 06:00 it's an individual thing. 06:03 The right doesn't own it more than the left, 06:05 and the moderate doesn't own it more than anyone else. 06:08 It is an individual choice that we are trying to protect 06:13 as it relates to the liberty of conscience. 06:15 And I need to say something here, 06:16 I mean, I hope it's... 06:18 Well, it's not intended to be a personal criticism 06:20 as far as the human being. 06:22 But, you know, on religious liberty 06:23 we deal with different groups and there are many groups 06:26 that are defending religious liberty 06:28 or religious legal issues, right? 06:31 America said the flow and justice is one of them. 06:34 Okay. They're secular. 06:35 We haven't always agreed with what he's done, 06:37 but he's done some wonderful things. 06:39 He's certainly been 06:41 one of the top figures in this area, right? 06:45 I just can't believe he's joined 06:46 the White House as the legal counsel. 06:49 I hear him giving legal excuses 06:53 for the most inexcusable things. 06:56 It's just pitiful as you would expect, right? 06:58 But I think how have the mighty fallen. 07:00 Here he was on a grand cause 07:02 for religious liberty argued high causes 07:05 but he's reduced to passing, parsing, 07:10 passing out the most crazy little statements 07:13 on this whole rusher and all the rest. 07:15 I mean that has to be done. Let's not... 07:17 But, I mean, which is the higher calling, 07:20 but I think this followed from this alliance, 07:23 and I just feel sorry and sad. 07:25 It's not a damnable thing 07:28 or anything illegal not even slightly. 07:30 But I think, you know, they've gone from the sublime 07:33 to the ridiculous in all in pursuit 07:35 of this grand alliance. 07:38 I think people in essence are looking 07:40 for a coherent truth. 07:44 And that truth shouldn't matter what party is at office. 07:48 The concept of liberty of conscience 07:50 is irregardless of party, it is not a partisan issue, 07:54 it's a human rights issue. 07:56 And that's just something that we have to take, 07:59 you know, very seriously. 08:01 And you have some people that think 08:02 we need to repeal the judgment. 08:04 And I'm like, "Absolutely not." No. 08:08 Absolutely not. 08:09 And then like your African-American churches 08:13 have been socio-eco that might be true, 08:15 and we do speak for human rights, 08:17 needs and suffering, 08:19 but we're not political action centers, 08:21 that is not our role. 08:22 Well, I'll say it again, I've had a burden on this. 08:25 I agree with the sentiment of what you're saying. 08:26 But we need to define terms more closely, 08:29 I listen to a lot of political talk in Washington. 08:32 And I hear over and over again on any number of issues 08:35 senators and congressman making a high point of them, 08:39 and they'll say and I don't want 08:40 to be political on this. 08:42 Now they are political. 08:44 And a lot of what we say, I was gonna say nine tens 08:47 but it's not true, but a lot of what we say 08:48 here is political, 08:50 there's nothing wrong with that, 08:51 that is our right even our obligation in this show, 08:54 what we need to beware of is partisan. 08:57 That's really what we mean by partisan. 08:59 Partisan, but it also bespeaks the motives 09:02 which goes back whether it's partisan, 09:03 what is your true motive behind what you're saying. 09:06 But social justice is political. 09:08 Social justice might be considered political, 09:10 but it's also... 09:11 You're in the political sphere... 09:12 That's in the political sphere but... 09:14 You can't avoid it. 09:15 But civil rights, I guess what I'm saying is 09:16 I don't want to think, 09:18 I don't want us to neglect the fact 09:19 that these are human beings. 09:20 Now this is my point in standing for civil rights 09:24 no matter that point in history 09:26 whether Republicans or Democrats 09:28 are supporting or opposing at that time, 09:30 it's not a partisan issue. 09:32 It's a moral issue. And we agree. 09:34 You can make it partisan if you're partisanly inclined. 09:37 Or you can demonize it as partisan 09:38 and not get involved, 09:40 but then you have this divide that we have concern. 09:42 So we shouldn't make any apologies 09:43 for some things or even apologies for 09:45 it being a political nature. 09:47 The real danger 09:49 and that the constitution speaks about 09:50 and that we warned about in our own writings 09:52 in our church is being partisan, 09:55 political in the sense 09:56 so we've got a political agenda, 09:57 we're working with political animals and so on. 09:59 No, that's not our outlook. 10:01 And Ellen White spoke to that as regards to slavery. 10:03 We have a history of speaking truth to power. 10:06 Yes. 10:07 One of the things that's really important about 10:09 liberty of conscience as we've talked about it. 10:12 Today is the importance to worship 10:14 according to the dictates of your conscience, 10:17 your right to choose or not to choose. 10:19 And as Public Affairs and Religious Liberty leaders 10:23 we need to ensure that we are ensuring 10:25 that liberty of conscience 10:27 for those who might not even believe like us. 10:29 And I think that gives us a ministry of integrity, 10:33 a ministry that is open, and encompassing to everyone 10:37 that might want to be part 10:39 of our Public Affairs Religious Liberty ministry, 10:42 but once again it's a choice 10:44 that we have to make and respect, 10:46 whether we agree or disagree. 10:49 Almost 500 years ago Martin Luther stood 10:52 before the diet of worms 10:55 and defended himself and his works, 10:58 but if you read his speech 11:00 and figuratively listen to those words, 11:03 you'll see that what he was really defending 11:05 was not so much a theology as his conscience 11:09 and his rights before God to pursue truth. 11:13 There's no question that today we're in that same dynamic, 11:17 we need to be sensitive 11:19 to the convictions that others hold. 11:22 In religious liberty we're sensitive 11:23 to a wide array of beliefs. 11:25 All need to be defended because human beings 11:29 have an obligation before God 11:31 to follow their hearts, and their minds, 11:33 and their convictions, and their conscience. 11:36 It is our great privilege I believe to work 11:40 in this context and in a day and in an age 11:44 when Twitter and all these other social media 11:47 are diffusing knowledge 11:49 and true interaction that somewhere, 11:52 somehow we must come back to the point of conscience 11:57 and a deeply held human conviction. 12:01 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-11-02