Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000374A
|
00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a program that brings you 00:29 news, views, discussion, and updated information 00:32 on religious liberty in the US and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, 00:40 a magazine that's been around now a 110 plus years. 00:44 And my guest on this program Ed Woods III, 00:48 a man of deep insight 00:50 I've discovered in many contexts, 00:53 but most particularly on this program. 00:55 And let's discuss religious liberty, of course, 00:58 what else on this program. 01:00 But let's take some current events 01:02 and developments in the US in particular. 01:06 Oh, you know, when you think about liberty of conscience, 01:09 you know, I know we like to give Adventists the right, 01:14 but it's also to give other people the right. 01:15 Of course. 01:17 And what people don't know about the Public Affairs 01:18 Religious Liberty ministry 01:20 is that you don't have to be an Adventist, 01:22 a good regular standing 01:23 to receive help from the church. 01:26 You know, we write letters to support of others 01:29 of different denominations. 01:30 And that would cost a several million dollars, 01:32 there'll be flood of requests. 01:33 But no, we'll help anybody that has 01:36 an issue usually on religious accommodation 01:39 and usually in the workplace, but... 01:41 And we help people. Of course. 01:42 And one of the things that's really kind of shaped 01:46 my theology and my perspective on this conscience 01:51 in terms of what it really means, 01:53 and the reason why I share this is because I was so... 01:57 Every time I saw these religious liberty days 01:58 growing up as a kid which is more beaten. 02:03 And it just annoyed me that pounding, pounding, pounding 02:07 and then something that just gave me a relief 02:09 or I say a spiritual breakthrough 02:11 came through John 16:8-9 02:13 I just wanna share it with you 02:14 because it's really just changed my perspective. 02:16 And it says, "When He," speaking of the Holy Spirit, 02:18 "Arrives, He will uncover the sins of the world, 02:22 expose unbelief as sin, and allow all to see their sins 02:26 in the light of righteousness for the first time." 02:28 In other words, 02:29 it's the Holy Spirit that convicts. 02:32 I don't have the pressure of making sure 02:35 someone goes to the watery grave, 02:37 that's the Holy Spirit's job for them to make a choice 02:41 according to the dictates of their conscience. 02:45 I agree with you. 02:46 But let me throw in and I want you to give explanation. 02:48 But there's some black churches. 02:50 So after the sermon, 02:52 they'll open the doors of the church 02:53 and it could 15, 20 minutes. 02:55 Work on you, work on you. 02:57 That's not what Cleveland taught me 02:59 so I have a Minor from Oakwood in a Ministerial Theology, 03:03 and in all honestly, Cleveland, in fact E.E. Cleveland, 03:08 God rest his soul, 03:09 he said, "You have not finished preaching 03:13 until you give an appeal." 03:15 Now having said that 03:17 the appeal should not be longer than your sermon, 03:19 having said that your appeal... 03:22 Going back to your position going not at all. 03:23 I'm not against appeals but that's what I did, 03:25 I need to explain that. 03:27 But it needs to be germane to the world. 03:28 Because you don't know how the Holy Spirit is working 03:31 going back to the text. 03:33 And, you know, most churches have Bible workers, 03:35 you know, I think we need to reinvest in Bible workers 03:38 or train people in the church 03:39 as a way to become better Bible workers, 03:42 but the Bible workers as you all know 03:43 set the tone for evangelisms and very successful. 03:47 You got to open the doors 03:48 to give people an opportunity to come 03:49 because you don't know what's happening during the week. 03:51 Especially if you're a guest speaker 03:52 in terms of this is the day they might have decided 03:53 they want to give their life to Christ, 03:55 and they can have people 03:56 like you never know what's going on, 03:58 how the Holy Spirit is working, 03:59 and the reason why the appeals because I've been into a church 04:00 where there're no appeals at all. 04:02 And that just drives me nuts. 04:03 But he says you never know how the Holy Spirit is working, 04:07 and you never know if this was the day because, 04:09 you know, tomorrow is never promised to us 04:11 and I don't do that as a scare tactic, 04:13 but the Holy Spirit I believe works, 04:15 I mean, I believe I'm a miracle, 04:17 I've been Adventist all my life, 04:18 but I'm still a miracle in progress 04:20 and the Holy Spirit works to convict and to change. 04:24 I can tell you a story. 04:25 And hopefully, it's interesting. 04:27 I spoke once at quite a large... 04:30 It was an African American black church in... 04:33 Was it Fort Worth or Dallas but in that area. 04:36 And it was near a shopping strip mall 04:39 on the other side of the street, 04:41 but that had a fairly open area. 04:43 And I preached and after I finished, 04:47 the pastor said something about giving a call, 04:49 so I gave a bit of a call then the pastor continued it 04:53 10, 15 minutes whatever, and a few people came down, 04:56 I mean, number. 04:58 And there was a young man I noticed 05:01 and then they passed them off 05:03 to elders and others which is good. 05:05 I don't like it when they have a call 05:07 and then it's a sort of bye. 05:09 There was good follow through and they took their names 05:11 and they had to give an assignment to each person, 05:14 you know, they were gonna follow through. 05:15 So that was the end of it. 05:17 So after the service, I went to the restroom, 05:19 and here's this young guy there, 05:21 so we got to talking and he says, 05:22 "Oh, yes, I've decided to do, this was my life and da-da-da 05:25 and I've sort of wasted it's all down." 05:27 I said, "Well, you stick with this pastor and, you know, 05:30 they'll stay you right." 05:32 And I said something about, 05:33 "You know, you're a member of this church." 05:34 He says, "Oh, I'm not a member of this church." 05:36 He says, "I was just walking down the street." 05:39 And he says for some reason, 05:41 he says, "I've never been here before, I came in." 05:44 And he said, "And I heard the call." 05:47 And that really hit radar with me like you said. 05:51 I mean, he'd never been there before 05:52 and it wasn't just me, but there was a lot 05:55 riding on that young kid, 05:56 he might never have walked in that church again another time. 05:59 And that's why I would agree with you, 06:00 I always remember him saying in an evangelism class, 06:03 "You don't know what the Lord is doing, 06:05 but you're a chosen vessel, make the appeal." 06:08 And also something we kneeled and prayed at the restroom 06:11 that I've never done before, you know, it's beautiful. 06:14 You know, I think it's a wonderful opportunity 06:17 to be a vessel used by the Lord. 06:20 But this conscience thing 06:21 is just so important that we respect it 06:24 because, you know, I mean, people like, 06:27 "Well, I've been laboring for this person for 20 years, 06:29 and so this is a waste of time we got above that" 06:31 Wait a minute, 06:33 the Lord has been blessing us for 20 years, 06:35 He's sustaining us, 06:36 and keeping us in our right mind. 06:38 So you can't say our soul is a waste of time 06:41 that the Lord has given to you, and I have a problem 06:45 when we try to quantify it by money, 06:47 so we talk about how much money we put in evangelistic campaign 06:50 and then we would have talk about what we have done. 06:53 I'm more annoyed about the process 06:56 when they come to a campaign, 06:58 what church are they gonna be with, 07:00 who's gonna do the follow up, 07:02 how have you assigned people to do it for, 07:05 I'm more concerned about the process 07:07 because I'm tired of people coming 07:09 and having these huge baptismal numbers, 07:11 but you turn around a month later, 07:13 you've got 70%, 80% of the people gone. 07:16 And we say we care about the process, 07:19 but the actions show something totally different. 07:22 And those are the things that really concerned me. 07:24 But we need to do things that I'll use the term 07:25 in Holy Order. 07:28 Holy Order. 07:30 I don't even know if we have order, 07:31 let alone let it be holy. 07:33 But those that see their concern 07:35 and it will be organized. 07:36 And we got to be intentional and deliberate. 07:39 I mean, let's face it, 07:40 I mean, I've been Seventh-day Adventist 07:42 all my life 07:43 so I'm used to the sunset Friday 07:44 to sunset Saturday. 07:47 I have to interject something, 07:48 I asked someone once I was visiting, 07:50 was it a church or I think have a little town, 07:52 I said to the person, "If you lived here all your life?" 07:54 And they said, "Not yet." 07:56 Not yet, that's true. 07:57 Well you've been an Adventist all life... 07:58 Well, I've been Adventist all my life till now. 08:02 With intention the rest. Rest of the way. 08:04 Well, I believe is that I do believe in the message. 08:06 I mean, I might not believe 08:08 in some of the things that we do, 08:09 but I do believe it's the remnant message. 08:12 And when I say the remnant message, 08:14 I believe in the three angels' message. 08:16 And I want to be, you know, real clear about that. 08:19 Adventism is just to find yourself 08:21 as the inheritors of the reformation, 08:23 it's a reform movement, 08:25 it's not a different religion, we're Christians. 08:29 And I don't wanna brand myself 08:30 because then it has the whole new another thing, 08:33 but I am a Christian who is a Seventh-day Adventist, 08:36 and I say Christian first 08:38 because I really want to be linked 08:41 of my goal, my prayer, my devotional studies 08:44 as a follower of Christ. 08:46 And it's just not something... 08:47 And I know I have fallen short, 08:50 and I will admit that I have fallen short, 08:52 I have high expectations, 08:54 I like things to be done in decency and order, 08:56 and if it's not done in decency and order, 08:58 I get upset. 08:59 I'm like why can't we be professional? 09:02 Why can't we have a high standard? 09:04 You know, why does the church have to be less there? 09:07 Why can't we be more there in our programs 09:09 and how we carry out our roles or responsibilities? 09:12 You know, why can't we have an air of professionalism 09:15 in everything we do, not just our worship service, 09:18 but our trainings, our workers meetings, 09:21 you know, everything that we come in contact with, 09:24 whether it's internal or external, 09:26 why can't we model and exemplify 09:28 a professional standard of excellence. 09:30 And that's important to me. I think the answer is we can. 09:32 Yeah, we can and being consistent. 09:34 Maybe a better question is why haven't we've been. 09:37 Well, that's a question... Not that we can't be. 09:42 The possibility is boundless 09:44 and the experience in other times, 09:46 Acts of the Apostles tells you big time. 09:48 Yes. Big time. 09:49 And this conscience thing is just something that's just, 09:52 you know, really important to me like, 09:54 you know, right now the, 09:56 you know, we talked about the Johnson Amendment. 09:58 And, you know, Trump came out last year in August 10:01 when he was a candidate talking about, 10:03 "I'm gonna give people a reason to come back to church. 10:07 You know, I'm gonna give church 10:08 more of a meaning to recruit the people." 10:10 That was really never the intent 10:13 of the Johnson Amendment in the first place. 10:16 We don't need to have a hook to get people, 10:18 political hook to get people to come to the church. 10:21 You know what the intend of the Johnson Amendment was? 10:23 It was a foundation, it had nothing to do with the church. 10:25 It was with some Senator Lyndon B. Johnson 1954. 10:30 To punish churches for supporting his opponent. 10:33 But these are really foundations, 10:34 they really weren't churches, there was the facts form 10:37 and another group they were foundation, 10:39 they had charitable. 10:40 The churches got swept in. But it's a punishment. 10:42 Right. 10:44 You know, why and it's a great irony the Johnson Amendment, 10:46 it accomplished 10:48 I think partly what the intent of the First Amendment is 10:51 to separate church and state, 10:55 but it did it in the wrong way. 10:57 And now in reverse, it's totally wrong 10:59 because the promise that he made to the churches 11:01 that all inhibitions would be removed 11:03 for their wits in all political activity 11:07 so the church will become a political action center. 11:10 Which is real. 11:11 And the proof I can promise you ahead of time 11:14 would be in the pudding as if by opening those gates, 11:17 and he and his party discovered 11:19 that many of them were Democrats, 11:21 he would soon find new Johnson Amendment 11:23 to restrict church democratic activity 11:25 because no politician and no political party 11:28 wants to empower their opposition. 11:30 So they're presuming that the religious right 11:33 for one of the better term 11:35 will be the ones empowered by this. 11:36 So it's a very partisan undoing of something 11:40 that was flawed from the beginning 11:42 but at root is this principle 11:45 of the proper separation of church and state. 11:48 Yeah, but let's also remember 1954, 11:50 the Democrats were not the leading, 11:52 they were the minority party. 11:54 And so when Johnson did this even without having debate 11:57 going through a hearing, 11:58 he got the consensus of his Republican colleagues. 12:01 So they saw the benefit for them as well 12:03 so therefore, 12:05 you know, they're just as much to blame as Johnson Amendment. 12:08 Obviously he wouldn't have got something 12:10 through just on a personal pick, 12:11 but you know why he passed it. 12:12 It was self-interest for him 12:14 because there was a Democratic primary, 12:15 it wasn't the general election, 12:17 it was the primary election, but also we see here that 12:19 the Republicans also agreed as well. 12:21 Now having said that though, 12:23 the reason why I go to church is not to hear some... 12:26 I don't need to start knowing churches 12:28 as Democratic churches or Republicans churches 12:30 or liberal, moderate, or conservative churches. 12:33 I'm going to church because of the Gospel of Jesus Christ 12:36 that I expect to hear at that church. 12:39 And to have that, as you said 12:40 political action centers as churches, 12:42 this is no different than when Jesus had to bring, 12:44 you know, turn up the tables with the money changers. 12:47 But still I'll be very happy if I go to church 12:49 and I hear the pastor talking about justice. 12:52 I'll hear the pastor talking about justice. 12:54 If he's got a sense of... Conscience. 12:56 Yeah. Equality, liberty, freedom. 12:57 And there is a wrong brought in the land free 12:59 to invade against it regardless of its origin. 13:01 But, I mean, the minute you have pastors speaking 13:03 politically constructed sermons, 13:06 I mean, that's just another act of a sinner, 13:09 that is not what the church is about, 13:11 that is not what the gospel is about. 13:13 And I'm happy that our church 13:16 not only took a stance verbally, 13:18 but also signed on with the Baptist Joint Commission 13:21 to make that happen. 13:23 I mean, I thought that was huge. 13:24 I mean, I had to look at my eye, 13:26 I thought my eyesight was wrong 13:27 when I saw the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 13:29 I mean, I had to applaud the efforts. 13:30 But we work very closely 13:31 with the Baptist Joint Commission. 13:33 Yeah, but our name was there. I mean, that's huge. 13:36 Although that's not, they don't necessarily 13:39 reflect the larger views of the Southern Baptist 13:42 or the Baptist community, 13:43 they become somewhat marginalized 13:46 on religious liberty, 13:47 marginalized within their own logic community. 13:50 And that's a shift from a historical past. 13:53 We need to take a break, we'll be back shortly. 13:55 We'll continue this discussion 13:57 that can go many different directions. |
Revised 2017-11-02