Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a
program that brings you
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news, views, discussion,
and updated information
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on religious liberty in
the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine,
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a magazine that's been
around now a 110 plus years.
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And my guest on this
program Ed Woods III,
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a man of deep insight
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I've discovered
in many contexts,
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but most
particularly on this program.
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And let's discuss
religious liberty, of course,
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what else on this program.
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But let's take
some current events
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and developments in
the US in particular.
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Oh, you know, when you think
about liberty of conscience,
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you know, I know we like
to give Adventists the right,
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but it's also to give
other people the right.
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Of course.
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And what people don't
know about the Public Affairs
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Religious Liberty ministry
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is that you don't
have to be an Adventist,
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a good regular standing
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to receive help from the church.
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You know, we write
letters to support of others
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of different denominations.
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And that would cost a
several million dollars,
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there'll be flood of requests.
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But no, we'll
help anybody that has
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an issue usually on
religious accommodation
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and usually in
the workplace, but...
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And we help people. Of course.
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And one of the things
that's really kind of shaped
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my theology and my
perspective on this conscience
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in terms of
what it really means,
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and the reason why I share
this is because I was so...
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Every time I saw
these religious liberty days
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growing up as a kid
which is more beaten.
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And it just annoyed me that
pounding, pounding, pounding
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and then something
that just gave me a relief
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or I say a
spiritual breakthrough
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came through John 16:8-9
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I just wanna share it with you
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because it's really
just changed my perspective.
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And it says, "When He,"
speaking of the Holy Spirit,
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"Arrives, He will
uncover the sins of the world,
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expose unbelief as sin,
and allow all to see their sins
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in the light of righteousness
for the first time."
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In other words,
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it's the Holy
Spirit that convicts.
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I don't have the
pressure of making sure
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someone goes to
the watery grave,
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that's the Holy Spirit's
job for them to make a choice
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according to the
dictates of their conscience.
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I agree with you.
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But let me throw in and I
want you to give explanation.
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But there's some black churches.
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So after the sermon,
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they'll open the
doors of the church
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and it could 15, 20 minutes.
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Work on you, work on you.
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That's not what
Cleveland taught me
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so I have a Minor from Oakwood
in a Ministerial Theology,
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and in all honestly, Cleveland,
in fact E.E. Cleveland,
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God rest his soul,
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he said, "You have
not finished preaching
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until you give an appeal."
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Now having said that
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the appeal should not
be longer than your sermon,
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having said that your appeal...
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Going back to your
position going not at all.
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I'm not against
appeals but that's what I did,
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I need to explain that.
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But it needs to be
germane to the world.
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Because you don't know
how the Holy Spirit is working
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going back to the text.
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And, you know, most
churches have Bible workers,
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you know, I think we need
to reinvest in Bible workers
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or train people in the church
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as a way to become
better Bible workers,
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but the Bible
workers as you all know
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set the tone for
evangelisms and very successful.
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You got to open the doors
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to give people an
opportunity to come
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because you don't know what's
happening during the week.
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Especially if
you're a guest speaker
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in terms of this is the
day they might have decided
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they want to give
their life to Christ,
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and they can have people
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like you never
know what's going on,
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how the Holy Spirit is working,
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and the reason why the appeals
because I've been into a church
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where there're
no appeals at all.
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And that just drives me nuts.
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But he says you never know
how the Holy Spirit is working,
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and you never know if
this was the day because,
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you know, tomorrow
is never promised to us
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and I don't do
that as a scare tactic,
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but the Holy
Spirit I believe works,
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I mean, I believe I'm a miracle,
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I've been Adventist all my life,
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but I'm still a
miracle in progress
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and the Holy Spirit
works to convict and to change.
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I can tell you a story.
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And hopefully, it's interesting.
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I spoke once at quite a large...
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It was an African
American black church in...
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Was it Fort Worth or
Dallas but in that area.
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And it was near a
shopping strip mall
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on the other side of the street,
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but that had a fairly open area.
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And I preached
and after I finished,
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the pastor said
something about giving a call,
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so I gave a bit of a call
then the pastor continued it
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10, 15 minutes whatever,
and a few people came down,
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I mean, number.
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And there was a
young man I noticed
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and then they passed them off
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to elders and
others which is good.
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I don't like it
when they have a call
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and then it's a sort of bye.
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There was good follow through
and they took their names
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and they had to give an
assignment to each person,
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you know, they were
gonna follow through.
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So that was the end of it.
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So after the service,
I went to the restroom,
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and here's this young guy there,
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so we got to
talking and he says,
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"Oh, yes, I've decided to do,
this was my life and da-da-da
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and I've sort of
wasted it's all down."
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I said, "Well, you stick
with this pastor and, you know,
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they'll stay you right."
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And I said something about,
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"You know, you're a
member of this church."
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He says, "Oh, I'm not
a member of this church."
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He says, "I was just
walking down the street."
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And he says for some reason,
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he says, "I've never
been here before, I came in."
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And he said, "And
I heard the call."
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And that really hit
radar with me like you said.
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I mean, he'd
never been there before
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and it wasn't just
me, but there was a lot
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riding on that young kid,
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he might never have walked in
that church again another time.
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And that's why I
would agree with you,
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I always remember him
saying in an evangelism class,
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"You don't know
what the Lord is doing,
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but you're a chosen
vessel, make the appeal."
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And also something we kneeled
and prayed at the restroom
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that I've never done before,
you know, it's beautiful.
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You know, I think it's
a wonderful opportunity
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to be a vessel used by the Lord.
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But this conscience thing
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is just so
important that we respect it
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because, you know,
I mean, people like,
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"Well, I've been laboring
for this person for 20 years,
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and so this is a waste
of time we got above that"
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Wait a minute,
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the Lord has been
blessing us for 20 years,
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He's sustaining us,
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and keeping us
in our right mind.
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So you can't say our
soul is a waste of time
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that the Lord has given
to you, and I have a problem
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when we try to
quantify it by money,
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so we talk about how much money
we put in evangelistic campaign
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and then we would have
talk about what we have done.
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I'm more annoyed
about the process
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when they come to a campaign,
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what church are
they gonna be with,
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who's gonna do the follow up,
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how have you
assigned people to do it for,
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I'm more
concerned about the process
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because I'm
tired of people coming
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and having these
huge baptismal numbers,
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but you turn
around a month later,
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you've got 70%,
80% of the people gone.
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And we say we
care about the process,
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but the actions show
something totally different.
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And those are the things
that really concerned me.
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But we need to do
things that I'll use the term
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in Holy Order.
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Holy Order.
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I don't even
know if we have order,
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let alone let it be holy.
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But those that see their concern
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and it will be organized.
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And we got to be
intentional and deliberate.
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I mean, let's face it,
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I mean, I've been
Seventh-day Adventist
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all my life
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so I'm used to the sunset Friday
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to sunset Saturday.
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I have to interject something,
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I asked someone
once I was visiting,
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was it a church or I
think have a little town,
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I said to the person, "If
you lived here all your life?"
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And they said, "Not yet."
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Not yet, that's true.
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Well you've been an
Adventist all life...
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Well, I've been
Adventist all my life till now.
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With intention the
rest. Rest of the way.
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Well, I believe is that I
do believe in the message.
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I mean, I might not believe
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in some of the
things that we do,
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but I do believe
it's the remnant message.
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And when I say
the remnant message,
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I believe in the
three angels' message.
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And I want to be, you
know, real clear about that.
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Adventism is
just to find yourself
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as the inheritors
of the reformation,
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it's a reform movement,
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it's not a different
religion, we're Christians.
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And I don't wanna brand myself
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because then it has the
whole new another thing,
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but I am a Christian who
is a Seventh-day Adventist,
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and I say Christian first
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because I really
want to be linked
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of my goal, my
prayer, my devotional studies
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as a follower of Christ.
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And it's just not something...
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And I know I have fallen short,
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and I will admit
that I have fallen short,
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I have high expectations,
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I like things to be
done in decency and order,
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and if it's not done
in decency and order,
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I get upset.
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I'm like why can't
we be professional?
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Why can't we
have a high standard?
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You know, why does the
church have to be less there?
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Why can't we be more
there in our programs
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and how we carry out our
roles or responsibilities?
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You know, why can't we
have an air of professionalism
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in everything we do, not
just our worship service,
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but our trainings,
our workers meetings,
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you know, everything
that we come in contact with,
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whether it's
internal or external,
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why can't we model and exemplify
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a professional
standard of excellence.
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And that's important to me.
I think the answer is we can.
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Yeah, we can and
being consistent.
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Maybe a better question
is why haven't we've been.
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Well, that's a question...
Not that we can't be.
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The possibility is boundless
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and the
experience in other times,
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Acts of the
Apostles tells you big time.
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Yes. Big time.
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And this conscience thing
is just something that's just,
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you know, really
important to me like,
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you know, right now the,
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you know, we talked
about the Johnson Amendment.
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And, you know, Trump
came out last year in August
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when he was a
candidate talking about,
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"I'm gonna give people a
reason to come back to church.
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You know, I'm gonna give church
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more of a meaning
to recruit the people."
00:10:08.54\00:10:10.84
That was really never the intent
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of the Johnson
Amendment in the first place.
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We don't need to
have a hook to get people,
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political hook to get
people to come to the church.
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You know what the intend
of the Johnson Amendment was?
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It was a foundation, it had
nothing to do with the church.
00:10:23.39\00:10:25.55
It was with some
Senator Lyndon B. Johnson 1954.
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To punish churches for
supporting his opponent.
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But these are
really foundations,
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they really weren't churches,
there was the facts form
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and another group
they were foundation,
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they had charitable.
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The churches got swept
in. But it's a punishment.
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Right.
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You know, why and it's a great
irony the Johnson Amendment,
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it accomplished
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I think partly what the
intent of the First Amendment is
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to separate church and state,
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but it did it in the wrong way.
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And now in
reverse, it's totally wrong
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because the promise
that he made to the churches
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that all
inhibitions would be removed
00:11:01.42\00:11:03.59
for their wits in
all political activity
00:11:03.63\00:11:07.86
so the church will become
a political action center.
00:11:07.90\00:11:10.27
Which is real.
00:11:10.30\00:11:11.63
And the proof I can
promise you ahead of time
00:11:11.67\00:11:14.30
would be in the pudding
as if by opening those gates,
00:11:14.34\00:11:17.54
and he and his party discovered
00:11:17.57\00:11:19.87
that many of
them were Democrats,
00:11:19.91\00:11:21.24
he would soon find
new Johnson Amendment
00:11:21.28\00:11:23.35
to restrict church
democratic activity
00:11:23.38\00:11:25.51
because no politician
and no political party
00:11:25.55\00:11:28.58
wants to empower
their opposition.
00:11:28.62\00:11:30.15
So they're presuming
that the religious right
00:11:30.19\00:11:33.56
for one of the better term
00:11:33.59\00:11:35.06
will be the ones
empowered by this.
00:11:35.09\00:11:36.76
So it's a very
partisan undoing of something
00:11:36.79\00:11:40.86
that was flawed
from the beginning
00:11:40.90\00:11:42.26
but at root is this principle
00:11:42.30\00:11:45.40
of the proper
separation of church and state.
00:11:45.43\00:11:48.37
Yeah, but let's
also remember 1954,
00:11:48.40\00:11:50.17
the Democrats
were not the leading,
00:11:50.21\00:11:52.21
they were the minority party.
00:11:52.24\00:11:54.01
And so when Johnson did
this even without having debate
00:11:54.04\00:11:56.98
going through a hearing,
00:11:57.01\00:11:58.35
he got the consensus of
his Republican colleagues.
00:11:58.38\00:12:01.38
So they saw the
benefit for them as well
00:12:01.42\00:12:03.75
so therefore,
00:12:03.79\00:12:05.12
you know, they're just as much
to blame as Johnson Amendment.
00:12:05.15\00:12:08.69
Obviously he
wouldn't have got something
00:12:08.72\00:12:10.09
through just on a personal pick,
00:12:10.13\00:12:11.46
but you know why he passed it.
00:12:11.49\00:12:12.83
It was self-interest for him
00:12:12.86\00:12:14.20
because there was
a Democratic primary,
00:12:14.23\00:12:15.63
it wasn't the general election,
00:12:15.66\00:12:17.00
it was the primary election,
but also we see here that
00:12:17.03\00:12:19.80
the Republicans
also agreed as well.
00:12:19.83\00:12:21.74
Now having said that though,
00:12:21.77\00:12:23.20
the reason why I go to
church is not to hear some...
00:12:23.24\00:12:26.37
I don't need to
start knowing churches
00:12:26.41\00:12:28.48
as Democratic churches
or Republicans churches
00:12:28.51\00:12:30.65
or liberal, moderate,
or conservative churches.
00:12:30.68\00:12:33.18
I'm going to church because
of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
00:12:33.21\00:12:36.58
that I expect to
hear at that church.
00:12:36.62\00:12:39.25
And to have that, as you said
00:12:39.29\00:12:40.66
political action
centers as churches,
00:12:40.69\00:12:42.62
this is no different
than when Jesus had to bring,
00:12:42.66\00:12:44.93
you know, turn up the
tables with the money changers.
00:12:44.96\00:12:47.70
But still I'll be very
happy if I go to church
00:12:47.73\00:12:49.70
and I hear the pastor
talking about justice.
00:12:49.73\00:12:52.43
I'll hear the pastor
talking about justice.
00:12:52.47\00:12:54.14
If he's got a
sense of... Conscience.
00:12:54.17\00:12:56.00
Yeah. Equality,
liberty, freedom.
00:12:56.04\00:12:57.37
And there is a wrong
brought in the land free
00:12:57.41\00:12:59.67
to invade against it
regardless of its origin.
00:12:59.71\00:13:01.74
But, I mean, the minute
you have pastors speaking
00:13:01.78\00:13:03.91
politically constructed sermons,
00:13:03.95\00:13:06.31
I mean, that's just
another act of a sinner,
00:13:06.35\00:13:09.05
that is not what
the church is about,
00:13:09.08\00:13:11.35
that is not what
the gospel is about.
00:13:11.39\00:13:13.76
And I'm happy that our church
00:13:13.79\00:13:16.06
not only took a stance verbally,
00:13:16.09\00:13:18.86
but also signed on with
the Baptist Joint Commission
00:13:18.89\00:13:21.90
to make that happen.
00:13:21.93\00:13:23.26
I mean, I thought that was huge.
00:13:23.30\00:13:24.87
I mean, I had to look at my eye,
00:13:24.90\00:13:26.23
I thought my eyesight was wrong
00:13:26.27\00:13:27.60
when I saw the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
00:13:27.64\00:13:28.97
I mean, I had to
applaud the efforts.
00:13:29.00\00:13:30.34
But we work very closely
00:13:30.37\00:13:31.71
with the Baptist
Joint Commission.
00:13:31.74\00:13:33.34
Yeah, but our name was
there. I mean, that's huge.
00:13:33.38\00:13:36.44
Although that's not,
they don't necessarily
00:13:36.48\00:13:38.98
reflect the larger
views of the Southern Baptist
00:13:39.01\00:13:42.52
or the Baptist community,
00:13:42.55\00:13:43.89
they become
somewhat marginalized
00:13:43.92\00:13:46.02
on religious liberty,
00:13:46.05\00:13:47.39
marginalized within
their own logic community.
00:13:47.42\00:13:50.13
And that's a shift
from a historical past.
00:13:50.16\00:13:53.06
We need to take a
break, we'll be back shortly.
00:13:53.09\00:13:55.83
We'll continue this discussion
00:13:55.86\00:13:57.20
that can go many
different directions.
00:13:57.23\00:13:59.33