Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nick Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000369B
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00:05 Welcome back to this interesting discussion
00:07 and just quickly comment on the Johnson Amendment 00:11 that you and I were discussing. 00:12 Yes, and just to remind our viewers 00:14 we're talking about 500 years of Protest and Liberty. 00:17 We're in the 20th century 00:18 and we're talking about the civil rights movement. 00:21 These are the wonderful freedom outgrowths 00:23 of the principles of Martin Luther 00:24 and his peers started 500 years ago. 00:26 That's right. 00:27 But the Johnson Amendment has acted as an inhibition, 00:30 but I don't know of any direct time 00:33 when churches were penalized either by the IRS 00:36 or some direct legal action for political involvement 00:39 and goodness knows 00:40 they've been very politically involved 00:41 since the '70s. 00:43 It's happened, it's happened once or twice 00:44 but effectively you're right. 00:45 It's the threat. 00:47 It's just the threat rather than the reality. 00:49 Yes. Now I remember one of them. 00:52 There was a liberal group that were attacked during the, 00:55 one of the recent conservative administrations. 00:58 So usually if you're supporting the powers 01:00 that be at the moment you're safe. 01:03 And for the last few years 01:04 there's been a pulpit Sunday protest 01:08 where pastors have gone in and specifically endorsed 01:11 or opposed candidates to exercise 01:13 their freedom of speech 01:14 and the IRS hasn't done anything. 01:16 Now the connection that I make, 01:17 now, I'm sorry for not mentioning it before 01:19 but years ago I had the D. James Kennedy 01:22 do an article in Liberty Magazine. 01:24 He's now dead but he was a very public proponent 01:27 for what was known as the Jones Bill. 01:30 Okay. Remember that. 01:32 It was a legislative proposal that never was passed. 01:35 But I thought it was getting through. 01:37 They wanted what we now got. 01:39 They wanted totally up and go for the churches 01:42 to raise unlimited political money, 01:44 promote parties and candidates in the church or elsewhere. 01:47 So there would be at the time of campaign finance reform 01:50 and restrictions the church would be and as he said, 01:52 unbind the churches. 01:54 Let them go. And what was your view of that? 01:55 Not good. Right. 01:57 I wrote a postscript for it. 01:58 I told him, I said, you can put your article in 02:00 but I'll put a postscript saying 02:02 we don't buy this principle, this is wrong. 02:04 Okay. 02:06 Because money influences churches 02:07 and brings them away from their core mission. 02:10 Plus if you know anything about politics, 02:12 that's fine if you promote the party that gained power. 02:15 Right. 02:16 If you back the party that loses, 02:17 the church will suffer. 02:19 Like the Catholic Church in revolutionary France 02:21 where overthrowing the king meant overthrowing the church. 02:23 People forget there is political rewards 02:25 and political punishments, 02:27 and if you cast your lot with one or the other party, 02:29 you're entering the violent frame. 02:32 Churches should be above it. 02:34 Now before we went to the break, 02:35 I said, I was going to talk about the connection 02:36 between Martin Luther the reformer 02:38 that we've previously discussed and Martin Luther King Jr. 02:41 They both have the same names 02:43 or close to the same names. 02:45 Martin Luther King Jr. was named after the great reformer 02:48 who came from the Baptist church tradition, 02:51 whose parents highly valued Martin Luther, 02:54 they were both Protestants, 02:55 but the question is, where they, 02:58 did they have things in common beyond that? 03:00 Is it just a historical accident 03:02 that they were both sort of reformers in their day? 03:05 And in our book here, 03:07 I make a case I think for showing 03:10 that what Martin Luther King Jr. did 03:12 is he took a couple of principles 03:14 that Martin Luther had laid down 03:16 about human dignity. 03:18 And Martin Luther King Jr. 450 years 03:22 after Martin Luther's 95 theses, 03:24 so it's 50 years ago this year 03:27 he made a famous speech at the Riverside Church 03:29 in New York City, 03:30 where he didn't just speak on behalf of black Americans. 03:33 I've listened to that recently. 03:35 Or blacks recently, he made a speech 03:37 on behalf of all people in the world 03:40 and he critiqued our war in Vietnam. 03:42 Yes, that's what I remembered from it. 03:43 Now a lot of people didn't like that. 03:44 They thought it was anti-patriotic, 03:46 anti-American. 03:48 But what he did as he said, 03:49 "If I am going to be a true principled Christian, 03:53 I have to extend this belief in the dignity of mankind 03:56 made in the image of God to all my brothers and sisters, 03:58 whatever color they are." 03:59 So nobody said that was picked up later 04:01 by James Ball wouldn't you, 04:02 if you remember in a more secular sense. 04:04 It was an attempt to apply the priesthood of believers 04:08 again to everyone in the world. 04:10 And what I think was very admirable 04:12 about Martin Luther King's approach which was, 04:14 I think done theologically 04:16 but also tactically it made sense was nonviolence, 04:19 not to draw the oppressor into violent confront. 04:22 Well, if you read about the philosophy 04:24 behind the civil rights movement, 04:26 while it was controversial 04:28 in some Christian circles at the time, 04:29 they modeled it 04:31 on Christ's Sermon on the Mount. 04:32 And the idea was to show humility, 04:35 mercy and civil disobedience 04:38 in contrast to oppression and violence, 04:41 and there was a belief that once 04:43 the American people saw this, 04:45 saw innocent, unresisting young people being beaten 04:51 and abused that Americans would say 04:53 this isn't right, this is wrong, 04:55 we must do something about it. 04:57 And that did happen. 04:58 And it did happen 04:59 and it was based on the principles 05:01 of the gospel. 05:02 Now in some ways both sides have moved away from that. 05:06 But the movement itself 05:09 was based on this important gospel 05:12 and freedom principle. 05:14 And what I think was good and yet different 05:18 than just an open ended thing 05:21 in the case of Martin Luther King 05:22 in the U.S., and Gandhi in India, 05:25 they were dealing with a system 05:27 that was acting badly, corruptly, 05:29 violently at times, 05:30 but it also subscribed to those 05:32 same principles, so it held them to account. 05:36 I think if they'd been dealing with a style on though someone, 05:39 it might not have turned out so badly. 05:40 It would have been a more difficult row to hoe, 05:43 that's for sure. 05:44 I mean the Christ principle 05:46 would have still been spiritually correct, 05:49 but it might not have been tactically successful. 05:52 Well, I think what we learned from both Martin Luther 05:54 and MLK Jr. both of them 05:56 appeal to the consciences of those around them. 05:59 And to the conscience of the oppressed. 06:01 And both of them used spiritual principles 06:04 to protest against civil abuses. 06:07 If you remember Martin Luther was protesting 06:09 against the indulgences 06:10 which was a combination of economic 06:12 and spiritual interest in a way that perverted the gospel. 06:15 Martin Luther King Jr. talked about American militarism 06:19 and industrialism combining to misuse peoples overseas. 06:24 Now the question we have today then, 06:26 what is it mean to be a Protestant? 06:30 Are there still things abuses of power 06:33 that we are willing to use our gospel principles 06:35 to protest against? 06:38 What do you think? 06:39 I think there are and yet it's, 06:42 it needs to be described carefully, 06:44 the difference between that 06:45 and what sometimes passes for the social gospel. 06:47 Okay. 06:49 Help me understand the difference? 06:51 Well, the social gospel can become an end in itself, 06:55 where I think true Christian principles 06:57 are not an end, 06:59 they're an outgrowth of the views 07:01 that you hold, 07:03 that your faith is in a higher kingdom, 07:04 another life and obedience to God. 07:07 So gospel, the true gospel changes 07:09 people's hearts and lives. 07:10 That should give you a social conscience 07:12 that should give you a sense of justice 07:14 and impel you to speak out and to march or whatever it is. 07:17 But those changed lives 07:18 and hearts are then going to care 07:20 for their neighbors 07:22 and for justice in the community, 07:23 is that fair? 07:24 Right. Absolutely, big time. 07:26 Yeah. 07:27 But the social gospel at least in the term 07:29 that I've seen it expressed 07:30 and acted on lately can become an end in itself. 07:33 The anti-abortion thing I think is a perfect example. 07:37 So we're coming to the end of the 20th century 07:39 and I'll just briefly sketch perhaps 07:41 what's happening, 07:42 we have the civil rights movement, 07:43 the rise of racial and ethnic equality. 07:46 Religious freedom is now protected 07:49 as a national principle, 07:50 the separation of church and state. 07:52 Something happens in the 1970s though 07:54 and you've alluded to it here the abortion case comes down, 07:58 Roe versus Wade. 07:59 It's a tricky question, 08:01 we're Christians, we believe in life. 08:03 But the Bible itself doesn't necessarily make life 08:06 the absolute and most important value. 08:09 And there's a sense in which perhaps 08:11 some Christian groups take that 08:13 and make it the only thing that matters 08:15 and make it the center of their political ideology 08:19 and they mobilize Christians. 08:21 Didn't Jesus say, you know, 08:22 you're worried about the speck in someone's eye 08:27 and what about the mote in your own. 08:28 And, you know, great injustice can be done by a party 08:32 that's supported by churches, 08:34 they just like the fact 08:35 that this person is anti-abortion. 08:36 But you know if you bomb innocents 08:38 somewhere else in the world, 08:40 you may have done a greater error. 08:41 So you need to have a truly consistent life ethic 08:43 is your point. 08:45 And to realize, again Martin Luther, 08:47 there's the kingdom of man and the kingdom of God. 08:49 And you can't have the kingdom of man 08:51 in all regards in alignment. 08:54 And so it was good perhaps 08:55 that Christians became more involved 08:57 in some social moral issues, pornography, marriage, 09:02 maybe abortion, they went over the line 09:04 in some instances maybe not in others, 09:07 but the Christians lost the distinction 09:10 between civil and spiritual moralities, 09:12 so they also began to press for government leaders 09:15 to be involved in worship activities, 09:17 whether it be prayer in schools 09:19 or official designation. 09:20 There's the point of frustration 09:22 where you see the moral decline so rapid, 09:24 you can't stop it by evangelization, 09:26 at least not the form of evangelization 09:28 that you're working with so, 09:29 here get that, I'm with the law too... 09:31 So now we're going to use the state to uplift and uphold 09:34 and maybe even promote. 09:36 And now you're back into the Middle Ages. 09:37 The Ten Commandments, right? 09:39 So we're coming here to the end of the 20th century. 09:43 We see religious freedom on one hand 09:45 on the rise as the Christian right, 09:47 right gain strength. 09:50 On the other hand there is an increasing secularism 09:52 on the other hand 09:54 that is causing religion and religious freedom 09:57 to be cut back on. 09:58 We discuss the story here in our book 10:01 and we'll finish with the end of the 20th 10:03 and the beginning of the 21st century 10:06 in our next program. 10:08 The image cultivated from history 10:10 in the United States is one of rugged individualism. 10:15 I'm originally from Australia and I know that 10:17 that's a characteristic of Australia. 10:20 It's become a characteristic of the West. 10:22 For years growing up, 10:24 I was aware that we were positing 10:27 the individualism of the Christian West 10:29 against the corporate dominance 10:33 of the communist system. 10:35 How ironic that in these opening days 10:38 of the 21st century, 10:41 religious liberty might be subject 10:43 to the same dissolution 10:46 and wrapping up in a corporate view 10:51 where the majority have the say 10:54 and the individual's rights, 10:55 the individual's sensibilities 10:57 and the spiritual responsibility 10:59 of the individual disappears. 11:02 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln steed. |
Revised 2017-07-24