Welcome back to this
interesting discussion
00:00:05.03\00:00:07.77
and just quickly
comment on the Johnson Amendment
00:00:07.80\00:00:11.17
that you and I were discussing.
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Yes, and just to
remind our viewers
00:00:12.57\00:00:14.08
we're talking about 500
years of Protest and Liberty.
00:00:14.11\00:00:17.25
We're in the 20th century
00:00:17.28\00:00:18.95
and we're talking about
the civil rights movement.
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These are the
wonderful freedom outgrowths
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of the
principles of Martin Luther
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and his peers
started 500 years ago.
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That's right.
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But the Johnson Amendment
has acted as an inhibition,
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but I don't know
of any direct time
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when churches were
penalized either by the IRS
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or some direct legal
action for political involvement
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and goodness knows
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they've been very
politically involved
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since the '70s.
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It's happened, it's
happened once or twice
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but effectively you're right.
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It's the threat.
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It's just the threat
rather than the reality.
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Yes. Now I remember one of them.
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There was a liberal group
that were attacked during the,
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one of the recent
conservative administrations.
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So usually if you're
supporting the powers
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that be at the
moment you're safe.
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And for the last few years
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there's been a
pulpit Sunday protest
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where pastors have gone
in and specifically endorsed
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or opposed
candidates to exercise
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their freedom of speech
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and the IRS
hasn't done anything.
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Now the connection that I make,
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now, I'm sorry for
not mentioning it before
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but years ago I had
the D. James Kennedy
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do an article in
Liberty Magazine.
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He's now dead but he
was a very public proponent
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for what was
known as the Jones Bill.
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Okay. Remember that.
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It was a legislative
proposal that never was passed.
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But I thought it
was getting through.
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They wanted what we now got.
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They wanted totally up
and go for the churches
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to raise
unlimited political money,
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promote parties and candidates
in the church or elsewhere.
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So there would be at the
time of campaign finance reform
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and restrictions the
church would be and as he said,
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unbind the churches.
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Let them go. And what
was your view of that?
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Not good. Right.
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I wrote a postscript for it.
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I told him, I said,
you can put your article in
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but I'll put a postscript saying
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we don't buy this
principle, this is wrong.
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Okay.
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Because money
influences churches
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and brings them away
from their core mission.
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Plus if you know
anything about politics,
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that's fine if you promote
the party that gained power.
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Right.
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If you back the
party that loses,
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the church will suffer.
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Like the Catholic
Church in revolutionary France
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where overthrowing the king
meant overthrowing the church.
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People forget there
is political rewards
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and political punishments,
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and if you cast your lot
with one or the other party,
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you're entering
the violent frame.
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Churches should be above it.
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Now before we went to the break,
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I said, I was going to
talk about the connection
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between Martin
Luther the reformer
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that we've previously discussed
and Martin Luther King Jr.
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They both have the same names
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or close to the same names.
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Martin Luther King Jr. was
named after the great reformer
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who came from the
Baptist church tradition,
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whose parents highly
valued Martin Luther,
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they were both Protestants,
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but the question is, where they,
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did they have things
in common beyond that?
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Is it just a historical accident
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that they were both sort
of reformers in their day?
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And in our book here,
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I make a case I
think for showing
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that what Martin
Luther King Jr. did
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is he took a
couple of principles
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that Martin Luther had laid down
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about human dignity.
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And Martin Luther
King Jr. 450 years
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after Martin Luther's 95 theses,
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so it's 50 years ago this year
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he made a famous
speech at the Riverside Church
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in New York City,
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where he didn't just speak
on behalf of black Americans.
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I've listened to that recently.
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Or blacks
recently, he made a speech
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on behalf of all
people in the world
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and he critiqued
our war in Vietnam.
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Yes, that's what I
remembered from it.
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Now a lot of
people didn't like that.
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They thought it
was anti-patriotic,
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anti-American.
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But what he did as he said,
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"If I am going to be a
true principled Christian,
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I have to extend this
belief in the dignity of mankind
00:03:53.06\00:03:56.03
made in the image of God to
all my brothers and sisters,
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whatever color they are."
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So nobody said
that was picked up later
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by James Ball wouldn't you,
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if you remember in
a more secular sense.
00:04:02.54\00:04:04.87
It was an attempt to apply
the priesthood of believers
00:04:04.91\00:04:08.54
again to everyone in the world.
00:04:08.58\00:04:10.71
And what I think
was very admirable
00:04:10.75\00:04:12.31
about Martin Luther
King's approach which was,
00:04:12.35\00:04:14.92
I think done theologically
00:04:14.95\00:04:16.32
but also tactically it
made sense was nonviolence,
00:04:16.35\00:04:19.12
not to draw the
oppressor into violent confront.
00:04:19.15\00:04:22.32
Well, if you read
about the philosophy
00:04:22.36\00:04:24.26
behind the
civil rights movement,
00:04:24.29\00:04:26.80
while it was controversial
00:04:26.83\00:04:28.16
in some Christian
circles at the time,
00:04:28.20\00:04:29.76
they modeled it
00:04:29.80\00:04:31.13
on Christ's Sermon on the Mount.
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And the idea was
to show humility,
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mercy and civil disobedience
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in contrast to
oppression and violence,
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and there was a belief that once
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the American people saw this,
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saw innocent, unresisting
young people being beaten
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and abused that
Americans would say
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this isn't right, this is wrong,
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we must do something about it.
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And that did happen.
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And it did happen
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and it was based
on the principles
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of the gospel.
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Now in some ways both
sides have moved away from that.
00:05:02.56\00:05:06.70
But the movement itself
00:05:06.74\00:05:09.17
was based on
this important gospel
00:05:09.20\00:05:12.04
and freedom principle.
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And what I think was
good and yet different
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than just an open ended thing
00:05:18.15\00:05:21.15
in the case of
Martin Luther King
00:05:21.18\00:05:22.85
in the U.S.,
and Gandhi in India,
00:05:22.88\00:05:25.89
they were dealing with a system
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that was acting
badly, corruptly,
00:05:27.36\00:05:29.09
violently at times,
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but it also subscribed to those
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same principles, so
it held them to account.
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I think if they'd been dealing
with a style on though someone,
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it might not have
turned out so badly.
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It would have been a
more difficult row to hoe,
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that's for sure.
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I mean the Christ principle
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would have still
been spiritually correct,
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but it might not have
been tactically successful.
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Well, I think what we
learned from both Martin Luther
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and MLK Jr. both of them
00:05:54.18\00:05:56.79
appeal to the consciences
of those around them.
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And to the
conscience of the oppressed.
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And both of them
used spiritual principles
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to protest against civil abuses.
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If you remember
Martin Luther was protesting
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against the indulgences
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which was a
combination of economic
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and spiritual interest in a
way that perverted the gospel.
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Martin Luther King Jr.
talked about American militarism
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and industrialism combining
to misuse peoples overseas.
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Now the question
we have today then,
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what is it mean
to be a Protestant?
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Are there still
things abuses of power
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that we are willing to
use our gospel principles
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to protest against?
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What do you think?
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I think there are and yet it's,
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it needs to be
described carefully,
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the difference between that
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and what sometimes
passes for the social gospel.
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Okay.
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Help me
understand the difference?
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Well, the social gospel
can become an end in itself,
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where I think true
Christian principles
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are not an end,
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they're an
outgrowth of the views
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that you hold,
00:07:01.72\00:07:03.05
that your faith is
in a higher kingdom,
00:07:03.08\00:07:04.49
another life and
obedience to God.
00:07:04.52\00:07:07.36
So gospel, the
true gospel changes
00:07:07.39\00:07:09.52
people's hearts and lives.
00:07:09.56\00:07:10.89
That should give
you a social conscience
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that should give
you a sense of justice
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and impel you to speak out
and to march or whatever it is.
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But those changed lives
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and hearts are
then going to care
00:07:18.93\00:07:20.77
for their neighbors
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and for justice
in the community,
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is that fair?
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Right. Absolutely, big time.
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Yeah.
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But the social
gospel at least in the term
00:07:27.64\00:07:28.98
that I've seen it expressed
00:07:29.01\00:07:30.35
and acted on lately can
become an end in itself.
00:07:30.38\00:07:33.92
The anti-abortion thing I
think is a perfect example.
00:07:33.95\00:07:37.05
So we're coming to the
end of the 20th century
00:07:37.09\00:07:39.82
and I'll just
briefly sketch perhaps
00:07:39.85\00:07:41.19
what's happening,
00:07:41.22\00:07:42.56
we have the
civil rights movement,
00:07:42.59\00:07:43.93
the rise of racial
and ethnic equality.
00:07:43.96\00:07:46.46
Religious
freedom is now protected
00:07:46.49\00:07:49.20
as a national principle,
00:07:49.23\00:07:50.57
the separation
of church and state.
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Something happens
in the 1970s though
00:07:52.80\00:07:54.80
and you've alluded to it here
the abortion case comes down,
00:07:54.84\00:07:58.14
Roe versus Wade.
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It's a tricky question,
00:07:59.87\00:08:01.21
we're Christians,
we believe in life.
00:08:01.24\00:08:03.68
But the Bible itself
doesn't necessarily make life
00:08:03.71\00:08:06.75
the absolute and
most important value.
00:08:06.78\00:08:09.68
And there's a
sense in which perhaps
00:08:09.72\00:08:11.62
some Christian groups take that
00:08:11.65\00:08:13.49
and make it the
only thing that matters
00:08:13.52\00:08:15.56
and make it the center
of their political ideology
00:08:15.59\00:08:19.09
and they mobilize Christians.
00:08:19.13\00:08:21.33
Didn't Jesus say, you know,
00:08:21.36\00:08:22.70
you're worried about
the speck in someone's eye
00:08:22.73\00:08:27.04
and what about
the mote in your own.
00:08:27.07\00:08:28.70
And, you know, great
injustice can be done by a party
00:08:28.74\00:08:32.61
that's supported by churches,
00:08:32.64\00:08:33.98
they just like the fact
00:08:34.01\00:08:35.34
that this person
is anti-abortion.
00:08:35.38\00:08:36.78
But you know if
you bomb innocents
00:08:36.81\00:08:38.85
somewhere else in the world,
00:08:38.88\00:08:40.22
you may have
done a greater error.
00:08:40.25\00:08:41.58
So you need to have a
truly consistent life ethic
00:08:41.62\00:08:43.79
is your point.
00:08:43.82\00:08:45.15
And to realize,
again Martin Luther,
00:08:45.19\00:08:47.12
there's the kingdom of
man and the kingdom of God.
00:08:47.16\00:08:49.76
And you can't
have the kingdom of man
00:08:49.79\00:08:51.96
in all regards in alignment.
00:08:51.99\00:08:54.26
And so it was good perhaps
00:08:54.30\00:08:55.63
that Christians
became more involved
00:08:55.66\00:08:57.30
in some social moral
issues, pornography, marriage,
00:08:57.33\00:09:02.24
maybe abortion,
they went over the line
00:09:02.27\00:09:04.17
in some instances
maybe not in others,
00:09:04.21\00:09:07.08
but the Christians
lost the distinction
00:09:07.11\00:09:09.98
between civil and
spiritual moralities,
00:09:10.01\00:09:12.31
so they also began to
press for government leaders
00:09:12.35\00:09:15.35
to be involved in
worship activities,
00:09:15.38\00:09:17.65
whether it be prayer in schools
00:09:17.69\00:09:19.29
or official designation.
00:09:19.32\00:09:20.66
There's the point of frustration
00:09:20.69\00:09:22.32
where you see the
moral decline so rapid,
00:09:22.36\00:09:24.76
you can't stop it
by evangelization,
00:09:24.79\00:09:26.63
at least not the
form of evangelization
00:09:26.66\00:09:28.00
that you're working with so,
00:09:28.03\00:09:29.36
here get that, I'm
with the law too...
00:09:29.40\00:09:31.17
So now we're going to use
the state to uplift and uphold
00:09:31.20\00:09:34.84
and maybe even promote.
00:09:34.87\00:09:36.20
And now you're back
into the Middle Ages.
00:09:36.24\00:09:37.57
The Ten Commandments, right?
00:09:37.61\00:09:39.57
So we're coming here to
the end of the 20th century.
00:09:39.61\00:09:43.21
We see religious
freedom on one hand
00:09:43.24\00:09:45.68
on the rise as
the Christian right,
00:09:45.71\00:09:47.72
right gain strength.
00:09:47.75\00:09:50.25
On the other hand there
is an increasing secularism
00:09:50.29\00:09:52.82
on the other hand
00:09:52.85\00:09:54.19
that is causing
religion and religious freedom
00:09:54.22\00:09:57.43
to be cut back on.
00:09:57.46\00:09:58.89
We discuss the
story here in our book
00:09:58.93\00:10:01.33
and we'll finish
with the end of the 20th
00:10:01.36\00:10:03.37
and the beginning
of the 21st century
00:10:03.40\00:10:06.03
in our next program.
00:10:06.07\00:10:08.00
The image
cultivated from history
00:10:08.04\00:10:10.84
in the United States is
one of rugged individualism.
00:10:10.87\00:10:15.04
I'm originally from
Australia and I know that
00:10:15.08\00:10:17.25
that's a
characteristic of Australia.
00:10:17.28\00:10:20.25
It's become a
characteristic of the West.
00:10:20.28\00:10:22.78
For years growing up,
00:10:22.82\00:10:24.65
I was aware
that we were positing
00:10:24.69\00:10:27.56
the individualism
of the Christian West
00:10:27.59\00:10:29.56
against the corporate dominance
00:10:29.59\00:10:33.33
of the communist system.
00:10:33.36\00:10:35.30
How ironic that
in these opening days
00:10:35.33\00:10:38.73
of the 21st century,
00:10:38.77\00:10:41.60
religious
liberty might be subject
00:10:41.64\00:10:43.64
to the same dissolution
00:10:43.67\00:10:46.94
and wrapping up
in a corporate view
00:10:46.98\00:10:51.91
where the majority have the say
00:10:51.95\00:10:54.38
and the individual's rights,
00:10:54.42\00:10:55.75
the individual's sensibilities
00:10:55.78\00:10:57.19
and the spiritual responsibility
00:10:57.22\00:10:59.42
of the individual disappears.
00:10:59.45\00:11:02.46
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln steed.
00:11:02.49\00:11:05.59