Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program,
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a must watch program
of religious freedom,
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religious liberty,
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discussions of
history and of the present.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the program
is Professor Nicholas Miller.
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I was hesitating
between professor and attorney.
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And author, yeah.
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This is the queue
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where we are most
anxious for viewers
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to be aware of this new book.
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500 Years of Protest and Liberty
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from Martin Luther
to modern civil rights.
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It covers the 500 years
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since Martin Luther's 95 theses
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and discusses how
Protestantism has interacted
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with the rise of
religious freedom
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and civil liberties.
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And its, the foreword is written
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by a well-known figure
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in the church
state establishment,
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Lincoln Steed himself.
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You can get a copy of
the book at Liberty500.com
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where if you
order it from that site,
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you'll also get a subscription
to Liberty Magazine.
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Good combination.
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It's a great, you can't
beat that for keeping abreast
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of both the history
of religious liberty
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and current events in it.
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Now, in a previous program,
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we were talking about the
civil war in last century.
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And I've actually never
seen Gone with the Wind.
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Well, I suppose we
should set this up by saying
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we've done a
program on each century
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since the 16th century,
five programs for 500 years.
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Martin Luther in
the 16th century,
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the priests of the believers
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tracing that
through the Anabaptists down
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through England, into
America, Madison, Jefferson,
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how the civil war brought
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the principles of
the First Amendment
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and made them
national principles...
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Right.
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That was the
connection I was trying to make,
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but very good outline...
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And now we're
starting in the 20th century.
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So we've been
dealing with the civil war.
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Yeah, we were
finishing up with the civil war.
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And I've never seen Gone
with the Wind, but just clips.
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But I know the
central theme there
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from history was
the burning of Atlanta.
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Right.
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That epitomized really
the destruction of that era.
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But I've got to
tell you, for me,
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when I came to the United States
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as a teenager,
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it was only about two
years after we arrived in 1968,
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I saw Washington burning.
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And I'll never forget that.
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It's a matter of history...
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It was the race riots.
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Yes, but it was because
of Martin Luther King's...
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Sorry, Martin Luther
King's assassination.
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And they broke out
all across the U.S.
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but here, the nation's
capital was going up in smoke.
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From where we
lived in Tacoma Park,
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you could look
out and you could see
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this huge pool of smoke,
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then in all
neighborhoods there were police
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and National Guard
with tape over the vehicles,
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it was a city under siege.
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And so Martin Luther
King was not an abstraction.
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He was at that stage an
incredibly polarizing figure
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but he changed the country.
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Many white Americans
think that slavery was over
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and done within 1865 at
the end of the civil war,
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but our country has been haunted
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by the demon of
slavery up to the present time.
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And it's...
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we pick up our
story at the beginning
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of the 20th century
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when, as I said,
in the last program
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after the Civil War
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the 14th Amendment
should have applied
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all the civil rights
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that we had in
the Bill of Rights
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to the states and
to state citizens.
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But because of the
desire of the commercial classes
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and the Southern elite
classes to continue segregation,
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those days of applying the
Bill of Rights were forestalled
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and were put off.
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And part of it too, you know,
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your history of the
carpetbag is that the north saw
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the south as the
subjugated territory.
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And initially at least,
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I don't think
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there was
aggressive about extending
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the full protection of law
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as they were
extending their commercial rates
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and capitalizing
on this fallen people.
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It's generally
acknowledged by historians
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that there was a period,
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a window of seven or eight years
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after the civil war
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where serious attempts were made
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to create greater
equality and political equality,
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but soon the flood
of commercial interests
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overwhelmed that.
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And you had a period
characterized by Jim Crow
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and discrimination
that ran from the 1870s
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into the 1930s, '40s, and '50s
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until the civil
rights movement took hold.
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Yeah, I can remember.
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Again in '66, I
first came to the U.S.
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You could go down south,
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so the signs out
front of some of the stores
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it was not quite placid.
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Well, and we
shouldn't be surprised
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that when we deny civil
rights to one group in society,
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that civil rights generally
are not robustly enforced.
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And what
happens at the beginning
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of the 20th century,
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of course, there
are some major events
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that happened in the
first half of the 20th century
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that we have to mention
World War I for instance.
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The suppression of
freedom's dissenters
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who opposed the
war were persecuted...
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prosecuted, locked up,
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and jailed but there were judges
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who wrote in defense,
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famously Oliver Wendell
Holmes of freedom of speech.
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And these
dissenting opinions soon,
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actually, carried the day.
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And the First
Amendment Bill of Rights
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began to be
applied to the States
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one right at a time.
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And it wasn't until the
1940s that some famous cases
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involving the
Jehovah's Witnesses
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and their refusal to salute
the flag during World War II
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caused the court to apply
a more robust First Amendment
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both speech and
religion protection
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that it hadn't previously done.
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You're getting into heavy stuff,
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even states' rights things.
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I can remember,
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I wasn't there at the
location but on television,
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I can remember Governor Wallace
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standing on the
schoolhouse steps
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I think it was
opposing federal agents.
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So it wasn't an abstraction.
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No.
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This was, as they saw it,
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states' rights versus
the federal government.
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And there's another point
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that I like to see
how you deal with this.
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I don't remember
directly reading about it
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but there was a
theology of slavery
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and of apartheid.
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Like these horrible statements,
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you know, coloreds
or blacks and Jews here,
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not by accident
the Jews were included
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because this was derived
from a religious world view
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that had demonized,
these are the racist groups.
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And it seems to me
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that in bringing
religion and theology
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and as you point out
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the principles
of the reformation
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to the fore,
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Martin Luther
King was countering
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another theological view point.
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I think largely
won at that point,
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but I think it's
coming back again.
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So some people like
to say that religion
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is the basis of oppression,
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and they're half right
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because religion is
also the basis of liberation.
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And as you've pointed out,
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the civil rights
movement was fermented,
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formulated in
the churches, right.
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Martin Luther
King Jr. is a pastor.
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And he preaches from the pulpit
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and he uses theological concepts
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and categories and ideas
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to promote the
civil rights movement
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which is the foot
soldiers of whom are people
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from the pews
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of the black
churches in America.
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And they are joined
by evangelical Christians
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from the north and
some from the south as well.
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Now is religion
also used as an argument
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to preserve the status quo?
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It is.
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But it's a
certain kind of religion
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that you might characterize
as a fundamentalism,
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a very rigid
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and literal
application of scripture
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that goes beyond the
plain teaching of scripture
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to insisting on the
plain reading of scripture.
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So if you read the
words slave and slavery,
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it means the same
thing as what's happened
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in 19th century America,
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not an economic bondservant
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that would have been the case
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in the Roman Empire
or in the Hebrew Empire.
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Not a good situation,
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but not a direct
analog to what happened.
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Not a racial chattel
kidnapping based slavery
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which most people don't know
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that the Old
Testament actually prohibits.
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Man stealing was a
crime in the Old Testament.
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Yeah, I know.
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So you have these two
competing forms of religion...
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Although the
Old Testament allows
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for selling
your terms of service
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and all the rest.
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No, that's right.
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And we don't accept
or believe that anymore
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but it wasn't the
same kind of thing as...
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Oh, yes, we do.
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I have a mortgage.
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No, I'm not half
joking. We're wage slaves.
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You basically bond
yourself for different reasons
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and in different ways.
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But to give up
your freedom of movement
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and all rest and
to be own lock, stock,
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and barrel for that time period.
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That's something
we're not used to now.
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Well, and you know,
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I think to
compare having a mortgage
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to the kinds of limitations
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that even
indentured servants has,
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it's still quite different.
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But I'm glad we
live now and not then.
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The difference of degree
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but it's controlling
mechanism, that's my point.
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So what we have
is we have a theology
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which comes out of
the Second Great Awakening
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which is renewed by
the black American churches
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which bring questions of,
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these days
unfortunately social justice
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and religious
freedom or religious groups
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are seen often
as opposite things.
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But in the mid 20th century,
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religious belief led convictions
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to those who
held the convictions
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about social
justice and fairness.
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And really these two
things can be married.
00:10:01.76\00:10:04.30
And I think it's no accident
00:10:04.33\00:10:05.67
that after Brown
versus Board of Education
00:10:05.70\00:10:09.10
in the early 1950s,
00:10:09.14\00:10:10.77
that it's only then when
the government has agreed
00:10:10.81\00:10:13.07
to a racial equality
00:10:13.11\00:10:14.44
that it also begins
enforcing religious freedom.
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For our viewers,
shorthand for some of us,
00:10:17.18\00:10:20.65
what is, I mean,
within the system?
00:10:20.68\00:10:22.12
What is Brown?
00:10:22.15\00:10:23.49
What was the...?
00:10:23.52\00:10:24.85
Brown versus Board of Education,
00:10:24.89\00:10:26.22
it was the famous
Supreme Court case
00:10:26.25\00:10:28.12
that said separate
is not equal, right.
00:10:28.16\00:10:30.79
There had been an
earlier Supreme Court case,
00:10:30.83\00:10:32.46
Plessy versus Ferguson at
the end of the 19th century
00:10:32.49\00:10:35.93
that said, "Well,
there is segregation
00:10:35.96\00:10:39.20
but that's fine as
long as the trade races
00:10:39.23\00:10:41.60
are treated equally,
then we can have segregation."
00:10:41.64\00:10:45.64
But the rub was
separate just was not equal.
00:10:45.67\00:10:48.01
We've all seen the pictures
of the drinking fountains.
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It sounded good
on a certain level
00:10:49.81\00:10:51.15
unless you knew
the real darkness.
00:10:51.18\00:10:52.51
And the kinds of
schools that the blacks had
00:10:52.55\00:10:54.22
versus the whites
were very, very different.
00:10:54.25\00:10:56.38
So Brown versus
Board of Education
00:10:56.42\00:10:58.02
essentially
integrated the school wasn't
00:10:58.05\00:11:00.02
said you could not
keep out someone from school
00:11:00.06\00:11:03.49
because of the color of
their skin or their race.
00:11:03.53\00:11:05.73
Yeah.
00:11:05.76\00:11:07.10
And I think it
was after we accepted
00:11:07.13\00:11:09.36
that principle of equality
00:11:09.40\00:11:10.77
and that it was to be
applied at the state level,
00:11:10.80\00:11:13.50
it was only then
that the court robustly
00:11:13.54\00:11:15.47
began to protect
religious freedoms as well.
00:11:15.50\00:11:18.21
What year was Brown
again, I should know.
00:11:18.24\00:11:19.74
Well, I think it was '50...
00:11:19.77\00:11:21.44
I have in my head, '52,
but it may have been 1954.
00:11:21.48\00:11:24.48
In any event, it
was the early 1950s.
00:11:24.51\00:11:28.25
And you pointed out,
00:11:28.28\00:11:29.62
this has a
contemporary resonance
00:11:29.65\00:11:31.89
because there's
been much discussion
00:11:31.92\00:11:33.25
about the
Johnson Amendment, right.
00:11:33.29\00:11:36.06
Perhaps the viewers...
00:11:36.09\00:11:37.43
Well, within our group,
00:11:37.46\00:11:38.79
I'm not sure the
regular newspaper reader
00:11:38.83\00:11:41.40
or TV watcher
would have noticed.
00:11:41.43\00:11:43.26
What they've picked up
is the new administration
00:11:43.30\00:11:45.80
making bold statements
that they want to really...
00:11:45.83\00:11:49.50
Well, there was
an executive order
00:11:49.54\00:11:51.11
to reinforce religious freedom.
00:11:51.14\00:11:53.54
So the new administration being
00:11:53.58\00:11:55.18
the President
Trump's administration,
00:11:55.21\00:11:57.25
he promised in his campaign
00:11:57.28\00:11:59.11
to do away with
the Johnson Amendment.
00:11:59.15\00:12:00.48
He promised then,
but since he was...
00:12:00.52\00:12:01.85
Well, tell our viewers
what Johnson Amendment is.
00:12:01.88\00:12:04.05
The Johnson Amendment was by,
00:12:04.09\00:12:07.79
what was he, Congressman...
00:12:07.82\00:12:09.16
Johnson at the time,
President Johnson later on...
00:12:09.19\00:12:10.53
Yeah, I'm trying to
think if he was a senate.
00:12:10.56\00:12:12.79
When he was in Congress,
00:12:12.83\00:12:15.33
he had a hard
fought reelection battle.
00:12:15.36\00:12:18.73
And he was angry
at a church group
00:12:18.77\00:12:20.94
that had opposed his reelection
00:12:20.97\00:12:22.30
or actually helped him...
00:12:22.34\00:12:23.67
It was actually, it
was a not for profit group.
00:12:23.71\00:12:25.41
It wasn't
actually a church group.
00:12:25.44\00:12:26.78
I thought it was a church group.
00:12:26.81\00:12:28.14
No, the bill actually
applies to church groups.
00:12:28.18\00:12:31.41
Well, I mean, yes, that I know.
00:12:31.45\00:12:32.78
But it was a not for profit...
00:12:32.81\00:12:34.15
Anyhow, he was
angry at this nonprofit
00:12:34.18\00:12:36.22
which is the same tax category
the churches come under...
00:12:36.25\00:12:39.05
Yes, that's right.
00:12:39.09\00:12:40.42
That's your 5013c,
right? Yeah, that's right.
00:12:40.46\00:12:43.66
And so to get back at
them, he proposed what is known
00:12:43.69\00:12:47.60
as the Johnson Amendment
00:12:47.63\00:12:49.83
which limits political activity
00:12:49.86\00:12:52.37
by churches or any 5013c.
00:12:52.40\00:12:56.94
I tend to think that
that was his personal payback
00:12:56.97\00:13:00.38
but one of the reasons
00:13:00.41\00:13:01.74
that it was broadly
supported became legislation
00:13:01.78\00:13:04.98
was this was the beginning
of the civil rights movement
00:13:05.01\00:13:07.35
and there was some suspicion
00:13:07.38\00:13:08.85
about the new activity of
the southern or the blacks,
00:13:08.88\00:13:13.86
Baptists down south and so on.
00:13:13.89\00:13:15.72
So the connection we're making
00:13:15.76\00:13:18.39
is that as the
civil rights movement grew
00:13:18.43\00:13:22.33
and as churches
were involved in it,
00:13:22.36\00:13:24.53
some of the
politicians pushed back
00:13:24.57\00:13:26.27
against it by trying to keep,
not for profit organizations
00:13:26.30\00:13:29.60
including
churches out of politics,
00:13:29.64\00:13:32.17
out of speaking moral
truths to the public square.
00:13:32.21\00:13:34.88
I've forgotten the pushback.
00:13:34.91\00:13:38.41
You can't always say who did it
00:13:38.45\00:13:39.78
but there was the
bombings of churches
00:13:39.81\00:13:44.12
where these young girls
were killed for example.
00:13:44.15\00:13:46.42
The federal officials
going against the voters
00:13:46.45\00:13:52.39
but as well as that
the evidence is very plain,
00:13:52.43\00:13:55.13
the FBI harassed
Martin Luther King.
00:13:55.16\00:13:59.03
Yes.
00:13:59.07\00:14:00.74
And perhaps had something to
do with his assassination even.
00:14:00.77\00:14:03.07
Well, I don't think
I would go that far.
00:14:03.10\00:14:06.78
They surveiled him,
they got a file on him.
00:14:06.81\00:14:10.78
There's a connection
between the surveillance
00:14:10.81\00:14:12.71
and the
information that was known
00:14:12.75\00:14:14.75
that led to his assassination,
so this is often the case,
00:14:14.78\00:14:17.62
remember FBI and
other law enforcement
00:14:17.65\00:14:19.35
they deal with
nefarious elements,
00:14:19.39\00:14:21.56
so information goes two ways.
00:14:21.59\00:14:24.06
Well...
00:14:24.09\00:14:25.59
I know what you try to avoid,
00:14:25.63\00:14:27.30
but it was a very murky time
00:14:27.33\00:14:28.96
and, you know, I remember living
00:14:29.00\00:14:31.33
through some of that,
00:14:31.37\00:14:32.70
and night was day
and day was night.
00:14:32.73\00:14:34.64
It was very said.
00:14:34.67\00:14:36.00
Well, when we come back,
00:14:36.04\00:14:37.37
I want to talk about a profound
and important connection
00:14:37.41\00:14:39.31
between Martin Luther,
00:14:39.34\00:14:40.74
the reformer and
Martin Luther King, Jr.
00:14:40.78\00:14:43.21
the civil rights activist.
00:14:43.24\00:14:44.58
It's very nice
00:14:44.61\00:14:45.95
that Martin
Luther King was named
00:14:45.98\00:14:47.32
after the leader
of the reformation
00:14:47.35\00:14:48.68
or the initiator.
00:14:48.72\00:14:50.05
Stay with us.
00:14:50.09\00:14:51.42
We'll be back
after a short break.
00:14:51.45\00:14:52.79