Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:04.80\00:00:07.17
Before the break,
00:00:07.20\00:00:08.54
yes, we were
talking about this book.
00:00:08.57\00:00:09.90
We were talking about
00:00:09.94\00:00:11.27
this 500 Years of
Protest and Liberty
00:00:11.31\00:00:12.77
and we're in the 19th century.
00:00:12.81\00:00:14.31
Nineteenth century and getting
into some serious discussions
00:00:14.34\00:00:18.58
of our states rights
and federalism and so on.
00:00:18.61\00:00:21.38
But the 14th Amendments,
00:00:21.42\00:00:23.12
if you, we were just
listening before the break,
00:00:23.15\00:00:24.72
the 14th Amendment
00:00:24.75\00:00:26.09
makes all of that moot
00:00:26.12\00:00:27.46
and of course,
made it easier to insist
00:00:27.49\00:00:30.56
on separation of church
and state really nationally.
00:00:30.59\00:00:32.29
That's right.
00:00:32.33\00:00:33.66
So all of this
can be a bit arcane,
00:00:33.70\00:00:35.46
federalism, states rights,
00:00:35.50\00:00:37.27
the 14th Amendment
00:00:37.30\00:00:38.63
but to make it
practical and important
00:00:38.67\00:00:42.34
there was no
national religious freedom
00:00:42.37\00:00:45.24
in the early part
of the 19th century.
00:00:45.27\00:00:47.18
Religious freedom depended
on your state constitution
00:00:47.21\00:00:50.31
and they could take it away,
00:00:50.35\00:00:51.68
they could establish
religion or churches,
00:00:51.71\00:00:53.92
they could force
you to go to church.
00:00:53.95\00:00:55.68
Now most of them didn't
00:00:55.72\00:00:57.65
but the fact was
00:00:57.69\00:00:59.02
there was no federal
national religious freedom
00:00:59.05\00:01:03.02
or separation of
church and state.
00:01:03.06\00:01:05.29
And we've been
talking a bit about slavery
00:01:05.33\00:01:07.80
and the revival
that led into the...
00:01:07.83\00:01:11.87
The Second Great Awakening.
00:01:11.90\00:01:13.23
The Second Great
Awakening, the Civil War.
00:01:13.27\00:01:15.17
And what
happens in the Civil War
00:01:15.20\00:01:16.64
is the context over
what kind of nation we are.
00:01:16.67\00:01:18.84
Are we 13, well,
00:01:18.87\00:01:20.21
at that point
it was more states,
00:01:20.24\00:01:22.58
you know, where we 20
something sovereign states,
00:01:22.61\00:01:25.25
or we're one sovereign
nation with some subdivisions.
00:01:25.28\00:01:28.88
And the south believed that
00:01:28.92\00:01:30.69
they were
sovereign individual states.
00:01:30.72\00:01:33.25
The northerners,
00:01:33.29\00:01:34.62
those that opposed slavery said,
00:01:34.66\00:01:35.99
"No, the Bill of Rights
should be the Magna Carta,
00:01:36.02\00:01:39.03
should be the
protection for all citizens."
00:01:39.06\00:01:41.43
And there should be freedom,
00:01:41.46\00:01:42.80
and equality, and
religious freedom.
00:01:42.83\00:01:46.03
And if war was fought over this
00:01:46.07\00:01:48.47
and Lincoln in
the north won the war,
00:01:48.50\00:01:50.97
so they won the
argument by force of arms.
00:01:51.01\00:01:53.74
But the reason
that Gettysburg Address
00:01:53.78\00:01:56.75
is such an important
document in our history
00:01:56.78\00:01:58.98
is George Will
put this very well,
00:01:59.01\00:02:01.12
he has a book by this name,
00:02:01.15\00:02:02.48
"The Words That Remade America",
00:02:02.52\00:02:04.75
and he argues in there
00:02:04.79\00:02:06.65
that Lincoln in talking
about the formation of America
00:02:06.69\00:02:10.66
and what happened to Gettysburg
00:02:10.69\00:02:12.29
is that he recreates the country
00:02:12.33\00:02:14.60
as a single sovereign
unit that is committed
00:02:14.63\00:02:17.17
to the fundamental
freedoms of all of its citizens.
00:02:17.20\00:02:19.37
Yeah, it's true.
00:02:19.40\00:02:20.74
And we now have a nation
that a few decades later,
00:02:20.77\00:02:25.57
and there's some historical
explanations for that,
00:02:25.61\00:02:27.94
begins to
enforce religious freedom
00:02:27.98\00:02:30.08
and the separation
of church and state
00:02:30.11\00:02:31.81
everywhere for everyone.
00:02:31.85\00:02:33.88
But that wouldn't have
happened without the Civil War,
00:02:33.92\00:02:36.85
without the 14th
Amendment which ultimately
00:02:36.89\00:02:40.42
and in the end
applies these Bills of Rights
00:02:40.46\00:02:42.82
and freedoms to
all of the states.
00:02:42.86\00:02:45.86
I agree with you
00:02:45.89\00:02:47.23
but there's a
little gap in between.
00:02:47.26\00:02:48.60
All right.
00:02:48.63\00:02:49.96
And is a period
of reconstruction
00:02:50.00\00:02:51.33
when bad things happen,
00:02:51.37\00:02:52.70
the year of the Ku Klux Klan...
00:02:52.73\00:02:54.07
All right.
00:02:54.10\00:02:55.44
There's the...
00:02:55.47\00:02:56.81
And then it's...
00:02:56.84\00:02:58.17
It's not a straight pathway.
00:02:58.21\00:02:59.54
In the '50s
Justice Black reinstating
00:02:59.57\00:03:00.91
the separation
of church and state
00:03:00.94\00:03:02.28
but you're right,
it's onward and upward.
00:03:02.31\00:03:03.78
Onward and upward I think,
00:03:03.81\00:03:05.81
but there's an
important lesson here
00:03:05.85\00:03:07.38
in that the slavery was horrible
00:03:07.42\00:03:10.92
and the discrimination,
00:03:10.95\00:03:12.79
Jim Crow
continues to be horrible.
00:03:12.82\00:03:15.16
But in
repressing the black race,
00:03:15.19\00:03:20.06
Americans also repress
liberties more generally.
00:03:20.10\00:03:24.70
I don't think it's a coincidence
00:03:24.73\00:03:26.30
that it's only as racial freedom
00:03:26.33\00:03:27.94
begins to come about in America,
00:03:27.97\00:03:30.21
that religious
and other freedoms
00:03:30.24\00:03:31.77
are also
protected and broaden that.
00:03:31.81\00:03:33.48
I have a feeling,
00:03:33.51\00:03:34.84
I want to save most of
this for another program.
00:03:34.88\00:03:36.85
Well, 20th
century we'll talk about.
00:03:36.88\00:03:38.21
I think, yes,
that's why, next...
00:03:38.25\00:03:39.58
Yeah.
00:03:39.61\00:03:40.95
But that has been the strength,
00:03:40.98\00:03:42.32
I think of the
series of articles
00:03:42.35\00:03:43.89
that you've recently
read that were in Liberty.
00:03:43.92\00:03:46.99
Bringing the reformation
not so much full circle,
00:03:47.02\00:03:49.62
but full force
from 500 years ago
00:03:49.66\00:03:52.83
as expressed really
in the underlying push
00:03:52.86\00:03:56.43
for civil rights
00:03:56.46\00:03:57.80
during the
civil rights movement,
00:03:57.83\00:03:59.17
Martin Luther King.
00:03:59.20\00:04:00.54
Yes, yes, and
that's to jump ahead
00:04:00.57\00:04:01.90
to the 20th century...
00:04:01.94\00:04:03.27
Yeah.
00:04:03.30\00:04:04.64
But to stay in
the 19th for a moment,
00:04:04.67\00:04:06.91
I want to broaden the horizon.
00:04:06.94\00:04:09.01
I should play the
Doctor Who theme here.
00:04:09.04\00:04:12.21
We're time
travelers. Time travelers.
00:04:12.25\00:04:14.55
Time lords.
00:04:14.58\00:04:15.92
To stay in the 19th
century for a moment
00:04:15.95\00:04:18.02
and to broaden our lens
from America to the world
00:04:18.05\00:04:22.99
more broadly,
00:04:23.02\00:04:24.56
is there an argument to be made
00:04:24.59\00:04:26.06
that this
dissenting Protestant outlook
00:04:26.09\00:04:28.10
impacted not only
00:04:28.13\00:04:29.46
in the American First
Amendment and the Civil War
00:04:29.50\00:04:32.13
and the spread of
freedom in America,
00:04:32.17\00:04:34.77
but what about
freedom in democracy globally?
00:04:34.80\00:04:37.64
Well, I think, you
know, and I discussed this.
00:04:37.67\00:04:41.84
I think it's self-evident.
00:04:41.88\00:04:43.28
How much of it's
through American imperialism,
00:04:46.58\00:04:50.25
I don't know
because the British Empire
00:04:50.29\00:04:52.85
continued up till
at least World War I
00:04:52.89\00:04:55.52
and World War II,
00:04:55.56\00:04:57.19
the aftermath of World
War II, we know was over.
00:04:57.23\00:04:59.33
But the great missionary,
00:04:59.36\00:05:00.70
Protestant missionary fervor
00:05:00.73\00:05:05.10
was toward the end of the 1800s.
00:05:05.13\00:05:07.70
So...
00:05:07.74\00:05:09.07
I think it did end
and I'll give you...
00:05:09.10\00:05:10.87
In the 19th
century as well. Yes.
00:05:10.91\00:05:12.71
It begins in the
late 1800s and into the...
00:05:12.74\00:05:15.78
And I have a
contemporary illustration
00:05:15.81\00:05:18.08
of how effective this
can be in a negative sense.
00:05:18.11\00:05:21.45
In recent years,
00:05:21.48\00:05:23.32
some of the more
politically active,
00:05:23.35\00:05:26.32
more conservative
religious right in the US
00:05:26.35\00:05:29.42
have gone to
several African countries
00:05:29.46\00:05:31.99
and had evangelistic campaigns
00:05:32.03\00:05:35.10
and linked with
their political leadership
00:05:35.13\00:05:36.87
and political movements,
00:05:36.90\00:05:38.43
and the immediate result
00:05:38.47\00:05:39.97
have been some
draconian anti-gay laws,
00:05:40.00\00:05:42.77
death penalties, and so on.
00:05:42.80\00:05:44.14
Right.
00:05:44.17\00:05:45.51
And the line is
bright and direct,
00:05:45.54\00:05:47.74
so...
00:05:47.78\00:05:49.11
In a negative sense.
00:05:49.14\00:05:50.48
Yes, but when knowing
that a religious viewpoint
00:05:50.51\00:05:53.38
taken in this
missionary zeal way
00:05:53.42\00:05:55.52
to other countries,
in this case Africa,
00:05:55.55\00:05:58.25
still has this effect
00:05:58.29\00:05:59.62
and you know that
00:05:59.65\00:06:00.99
during the height
of the British Empire
00:06:01.02\00:06:02.56
and then as
America moved out globally,
00:06:02.59\00:06:04.53
same thing happened.
00:06:04.56\00:06:05.89
Well, Robert Woodberry
is a political scientist,
00:06:05.93\00:06:08.80
has his PhD in Political Science
00:06:08.83\00:06:12.40
and wrote a very
influential article
00:06:12.43\00:06:14.54
just a couple of years ago,
00:06:14.57\00:06:16.64
in the American
Political Science Journal
00:06:16.67\00:06:19.17
about the impact of
missions and missionaries
00:06:19.21\00:06:22.68
on the growth of
global democracy.
00:06:22.71\00:06:24.81
Now it had been
conventional wisdom
00:06:24.85\00:06:26.25
among historians
that missionaries
00:06:26.28\00:06:29.12
were part of the imperialistic,
00:06:29.15\00:06:31.05
hegemonic agenda
of the western powers
00:06:31.09\00:06:33.52
and were sort of
repressive colonial forces
00:06:33.56\00:06:36.96
bringing the people underneath
00:06:36.99\00:06:38.46
the oversight of
their colonial overlords.
00:06:38.49\00:06:41.66
Well, that's not
entirely without some truth.
00:06:41.70\00:06:44.93
Many of the nations,
00:06:44.97\00:06:47.54
Catholic
settlements of South America
00:06:47.57\00:06:50.41
would probably
fall in that category.
00:06:50.44\00:06:53.27
Jesuit advisors in China
and other places definitely.
00:06:53.31\00:06:56.75
But in some instances,
00:06:56.78\00:06:58.11
the Jesuits
defended local native groups
00:06:58.15\00:07:01.32
from the predations
of the political masters,
00:07:01.35\00:07:04.82
and there is this
amazing correlation
00:07:04.85\00:07:06.92
that Robert Woodberry
00:07:06.96\00:07:08.29
in his
groundbreaking article has shown
00:07:08.32\00:07:10.49
that dissenting Protestants,
free church Protestants,
00:07:10.53\00:07:13.73
the Protestants
that weren't established
00:07:13.76\00:07:17.30
by government
00:07:17.33\00:07:18.67
but worked on their own
00:07:18.70\00:07:20.87
actually are strongly correlated
00:07:20.90\00:07:22.67
with the growth of
democracy in these countries.
00:07:22.70\00:07:25.07
And he points out
00:07:25.11\00:07:26.44
much as I argue in our book here
00:07:26.47\00:07:28.41
that the priesthood of believers
00:07:28.44\00:07:29.98
caused these
dissenting Protestants
00:07:30.01\00:07:32.01
to seek to
educate broadly everyone.
00:07:32.05\00:07:34.58
If you were...
00:07:34.62\00:07:35.95
Now you got the key,
00:07:35.98\00:07:37.32
that's what I was going to say.
00:07:37.35\00:07:38.92
Now the Jesuits
00:07:38.95\00:07:40.29
in some of the colonial
adventures tended to advice
00:07:40.32\00:07:43.43
the rulers and so on.
00:07:43.46\00:07:44.79
Right.
00:07:44.83\00:07:46.16
But I think as Protestant
evangelization moved out,
00:07:46.19\00:07:47.96
it is most effective.
00:07:48.00\00:07:49.33
They were running schools
00:07:49.36\00:07:51.07
where they were training
00:07:51.10\00:07:52.43
the leadership
level of the country
00:07:52.47\00:07:54.80
and that's definitely,
00:07:54.84\00:07:56.27
even to this day
00:07:56.30\00:07:57.71
where they
indoctrinate in the best sense,
00:07:57.74\00:08:03.35
the new leadership
would come that are imbued
00:08:03.38\00:08:05.71
with perhaps not
directly Christianity
00:08:05.75\00:08:09.12
but an understanding of it.
00:08:09.15\00:08:10.69
But certainly these libertarian
freedom principles...
00:08:10.72\00:08:14.32
They created
literacy. Literacy reformation.
00:08:14.36\00:08:16.02
They created
printing opportunities.
00:08:16.06\00:08:17.83
They put in an
educational system,
00:08:17.86\00:08:19.76
and a belief in the
importance of social involvement
00:08:19.79\00:08:24.00
by people in their communities.
00:08:24.03\00:08:27.04
Woodberry has
shown and correlated
00:08:27.07\00:08:29.00
the growth of democracy
00:08:29.04\00:08:31.34
with these
dissenting Protestant groups
00:08:31.37\00:08:33.31
in more than a 100
countries worldwide.
00:08:33.34\00:08:35.81
And it upholds a
notion that not all religion
00:08:35.84\00:08:40.42
but certain kinds of religion
00:08:40.45\00:08:42.32
delivered in a
certain kind of way
00:08:42.35\00:08:44.52
can be and in fact
did effectively promote
00:08:44.55\00:08:47.52
the growth of
democracy in democratic ideal.
00:08:47.56\00:08:50.39
It's a very, I mean, I
think it's an easily proven
00:08:50.43\00:08:53.76
in a very positive
aspect of religious activity.
00:08:53.80\00:08:57.87
This is not to say there
weren't abuses, and problems,
00:08:57.90\00:09:00.50
and imperialism,
and all the rest of it.
00:09:00.54\00:09:01.94
This is in the full
throttle defense of that,
00:09:01.97\00:09:04.11
but it is to say that
when you have a religion
00:09:04.14\00:09:06.84
that respects the
human dignity of all
00:09:06.88\00:09:10.28
that you don't
just educate the elites,
00:09:10.31\00:09:12.15
but you say
everyone must have access
00:09:12.18\00:09:14.35
to this knowledge
00:09:14.38\00:09:15.98
and then you
follow through on that
00:09:16.02\00:09:17.99
the conditions of
democracy and freedom
00:09:18.02\00:09:23.36
can grow and develop.
00:09:23.39\00:09:24.89
And there's one
story that comes to mind
00:09:24.93\00:09:26.26
and it sort of the
sublime to the ridiculous.
00:09:26.29\00:09:28.76
You know, Anna and
The King of Siam...
00:09:28.80\00:09:31.03
Okay.
00:09:31.07\00:09:32.40
That's basically
telling that same thing.
00:09:32.43\00:09:34.07
Okay, yeah.
00:09:34.10\00:09:35.44
In the musical, it downplays
the Christian mission aspect
00:09:35.47\00:09:38.17
but it's definitely
in the original story.
00:09:38.21\00:09:40.24
So we come to the end.
00:09:40.28\00:09:41.61
And they didn't make
Christians advertise,
00:09:41.64\00:09:43.58
but I believe that
Western Christian freedom values
00:09:43.61\00:09:47.95
were inculcated
very successfully
00:09:47.98\00:09:49.82
into this
Southeast Asian country.
00:09:49.85\00:09:53.36
So we've got a
minute to talk about
00:09:53.39\00:09:54.76
the end of the 19th century.
00:09:54.79\00:09:56.12
Yeah, well, go
for it, go for it.
00:09:56.16\00:09:57.49
And so civil war
happens, people are freed,
00:09:57.53\00:10:00.70
the nation falls
into a long period
00:10:00.73\00:10:02.93
of reconstruction and Jim Crow,
00:10:02.96\00:10:05.23
much to its discredit.
00:10:05.27\00:10:07.00
There is the rise of
secularism in America,
00:10:07.04\00:10:09.40
you've mentioned
Darwin's Origin of the Species
00:10:09.44\00:10:12.24
and that book impacts
public thought about the races.
00:10:12.27\00:10:17.31
If Darwin is
right about the blacks
00:10:17.35\00:10:22.38
then they can be kept
lower on the totem pole
00:10:22.42\00:10:25.25
because it's
survival of the fittest.
00:10:25.29\00:10:28.19
And freedom, religious freedom,
00:10:28.22\00:10:30.23
racial freedom gets put
to the side for a few decades
00:10:30.26\00:10:33.53
and we have to pick up our story
00:10:33.56\00:10:35.30
in the 20th century.
00:10:35.33\00:10:37.10
And you can of
course read about it here
00:10:37.13\00:10:39.20
in our 500 years of Liberty
and Protest at Liberty500.com
00:10:39.23\00:10:44.84
The story of religious
liberty in the United States
00:10:44.87\00:10:47.98
cannot be told apart
00:10:48.01\00:10:49.71
from the two great
religious revivals,
00:10:49.74\00:10:52.75
one of around 1740
00:10:52.78\00:10:55.85
and another around 1840, 1850.
00:10:55.88\00:10:59.72
The second one took place,
00:10:59.75\00:11:02.32
if you think about history
00:11:02.36\00:11:03.93
between the traumatic
experience of the war of 1812
00:11:03.96\00:11:08.23
where a weak United States,
00:11:08.26\00:11:10.70
barely a country
faced off against England
00:11:10.73\00:11:13.27
again in a formal war
00:11:13.30\00:11:15.64
and between that
and the civil war,
00:11:15.67\00:11:19.81
only 10, 20 years
after the Great Awakening.
00:11:19.84\00:11:23.71
It cannot be
separated against from both
00:11:23.75\00:11:27.82
because there was
a national trauma,
00:11:27.85\00:11:30.09
a sense of lack of place
00:11:30.12\00:11:32.52
that spiritual
commitment filled,
00:11:32.55\00:11:35.59
that Great Awakening,
that Second Great Awakening
00:11:35.62\00:11:38.89
gave an apocalyptic
purpose to Christian life
00:11:38.93\00:11:43.40
in the United states
00:11:43.43\00:11:44.80
and unfortunately
sowed both the seeds
00:11:44.83\00:11:47.20
to continued
religious energy and dynamism
00:11:47.24\00:11:51.24
and the seeds to
American exceptionalism,
00:11:51.27\00:11:54.04
and the sense of destiny
devoid of responsibility.
00:11:54.08\00:11:58.45
We are inheriting both today.
00:11:58.48\00:12:03.05
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:03.08\00:12:06.09