Welcome to the Liberty insider.
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This is the program bringing
news, views, and insight,
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and up-to-date information
on religious liberty in the US
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and around the world,
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and today and
back to its origins.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty magazine
and my guest on the program
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Nick Miller professor, lawyer...
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And author, right.
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This is the book
we're talking about.
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Renaissance man.
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500 Years of Protest and Liberty
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from Martin Luther
to modern civil rights.
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It has deep connections
with Liberty magazine.
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I wrote much of it originally
as articles for Liberty
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and have added
some additional material
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to bring it up today.
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We're working
cooperatively to promote this.
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Yeah.
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Liberty500.com and if
you buy it from that site,
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you'll get a year
subscription to Liberty magazine
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as well which is a great way
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to stay up-to-date
with what's happening.
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You say how much it is?
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Yeah, the retail price is 24.99.
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Yeah, and it's a hard back.
That's right, it's a big book.
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It's a nice book
covering 500 years...
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It's cheap.
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Very.
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By the year it's a great deal,
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covering 500 years
and what we've done
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is were taking a
program per 100 years.
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We're done the
16th and 17th centuries
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and now we're on
to the 18th century
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and we're tracing
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the development
of religious freedom.
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I pause it from Martin Luther's
priesthood of all believers
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and the idea of
freedom that brings,
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the freedom not
only to pray to God
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but to study the
Bible for yourselves
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without
interference from the state.
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Therefore, the state
can't pass religious laws
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because they
would have to interpret
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the Bible and apply that to you.
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We saw how this went
from Luther to the Anabaptist,
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to the English Baptist,
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to men like John
Milton and John Locke,
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who wrote broadly
and that brings us
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to the 18th century
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where American
colonies begin to form.
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They began to form
in the 17th century
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but really they take
on a certain character
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by the time of the 18th century
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that just now leads
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into the founding
of the country itself.
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There are three
areas to the colonies,
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there's New England,
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they are the middle colonies
New York, Maryland, Delaware,
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New Jersey, and then
there's the southern colonies.
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Each of those 13
colonies all together
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and each of those three areas,
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those groupings
relate to church and state
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in a somewhat different
way and you know enough
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about New
England and the puritans.
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Yeah, for different
reasons like around Baltimore
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was a strong Catholic enclave
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and up in New England
the Episcopal Church...
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Well, no, no
the Episcopal Church
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was actually in
the Anglican Church
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in the southern colonies.
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But you're right the puritans
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are part of the
Church of England,
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they don't leave, but
they start their own...
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You might differ from it.
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All right.
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I believe down south
were more of the puritans
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that had come across
after Oliver Cromwell.
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No, no, it's
the other way round.
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It's New England is
where the puritans go.
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No, no, after Oliver Cromwell.
Oh, after Oliver Cromwell.
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With the restoration,
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tens of thousands of
them fled and I believe most,
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not most but an
awful lot of them
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went down south.
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The restoration colony,
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some did go down
south, it's true,
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but the southern
colonies have been founded
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as Anglican establishment,
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whereas the New England colonies
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were congregational
puritan establishments.
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Yeah.
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And they had much more...
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It's a hodgepodge,
yeah. It's a hodgepodge.
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And like even in Pennsylvania
I lived in near that area,
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I lived in Maryland,
but the Pennsylvania Dutch.
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But it's the Germans...
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They're actually Germans.
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Yeah, but they're
Anabaptists a lot of them so...
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Well, this is the story
most people think America,
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the pilgrims, the
puritans, religious freedom,
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but as we discussed last
time that's really not true.
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The puritans were
interested in religious freedom
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for themselves,
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but if you were a
Quaker, or you were a Baptist,
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you were persecuted and
in fact Rodger Williams,
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he becomes the Baptist,
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has to go and start his
own colony in Rhode Island.
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And Rodger
Williams had very close ties
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to the insider group
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that formed Oliver
Cromwell's government,
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did you know that?
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I'm trying to
think of the top guy
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in the government
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that was basically a
mentor to Oliver Cromwell,
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he was a very close friend of...
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Well, I didn't know that.
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I did know that
Rodger Williams met
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and knew John Milton.
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Rodger Williams taught
Milton some of the English,
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not the English,
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the native American
languages and as I remember it,
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Milton, I think taught...
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anyway they
exchanged ideas and printers.
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So Lord so and so,
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but it was the inner circle
that was advising Cromwell.
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But the important
thing to point out
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is that New England
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didn't really
produce religious freedom
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except for Rodger
Williams in Rhode Island,
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but he was on the
margins and was outcast.
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Virginia we often think
of, oh, Jefferson and Madison,
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but Virginia was an
Anglican establishment.
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Where do we find
religious freedom
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in early America?
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The middle
colonies, Pennsylvania.
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You actually mentioned Maryland.
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In Maryland there was
a high level of tolerance
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because the Catholics found
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that this kind of
religious freedom haven.
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But even in Maryland,
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eventually there
were enough Anglicans
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that came along
that they passed rules
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outlawing Catholic worship.
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Pennsylvania is the
only of the original colonies
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where there was
continuous protection
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for Catholic worship.
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Jews could worship,
Catholics could worship,
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native Americans could worship,
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and you have William
Payne who was a Quaker
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and who's picked up
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the dissenting Protestant
views of religious freedom
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and church and state
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and created
Pennsylvania in that model.
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I never quite thought
of Pennsylvania in the way
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you're saying
unless it's obviously true.
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The lesson I get is that
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before the
constitution was brought up,
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I don't think the experience
was very good anywhere.
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It just was that
it was so different.
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There were continued
examples of religious prejudice
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and of essentially establishment
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of a certain group but
not always the same one.
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Well,
Pennsylvania wasn't perfect,
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there was actually
a rule on a book said,
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if you wanted to
be a state employee,
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you needed to believe
in God and Jesus Christ.
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But there is no
evidence that was enforced
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and it's a probability
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that the
colonial office in England
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who granted the
colonial charters
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put that requirement in there
and Payne never enforced it.
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But what we do know is that
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Pennsylvania had
the highest level
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of religious
freedom outside Rhode Island
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which again was
obscured on the edges
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and it soon became the most
commercially successful colony.
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Do you know it was founded...
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Oh, like the
Switzerland of the new world.
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Philadelphia was
founded, two or three decades,
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several decades after
both Boston and New York,
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but it very quickly
outstripped those in size
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and the reason was
William Payne traveled
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throughout Europe
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and found all the
persecuted groups,
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the Moravians, the Anabaptists,
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the Huguenots, Catholic and Jews
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and said come to Pennsylvania.
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We'll use your skills
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and your religious
beliefs will be protected.
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It very quickly
surpassed Boston,
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New York in size
and economic viability
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and by 1720 it was known as
the Athens of North America.
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And Jefferson,
Madison and other leaders
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in the colonial period,
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they didn't site Rhode Island
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as the model for the new nation,
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they said, "What's
happening in Pennsylvania is
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where it's at."
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And I think it's no accident
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when the Continental
Congress came to ride,
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right, it rode in Philadelphia
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and the constitutional
convention was in Philadelphia
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and they were surrounded
by this model of prosperity
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which have been brought about
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by the strong
religious protection,
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bringing in and turning
it into a successful colony.
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It's a very interesting
story and you're right,
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it's a part of the
continuum of Protestantism.
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So what happens
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when Pennsylvania is founded
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and this dissenting
model is allowed to spread.
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It's criticized by some
because it was a standard belief
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up to that point
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that they have a
successful political unit
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and an economic unit,
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you needed to have
uniformity in religion
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and that's the model
that Europe have forward on.
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And so suddenly they have
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this example of
religious diversity
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and pluralism going
along with economic and social,
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and political success was
an eye-opener for many people.
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Yeah, but...
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Maybe I'm
jumping ahead in time...
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All right.
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What's your explanation though
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when they came together
to draw up a constitution?
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Why even though
there were some arguments
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in the contrary
by, what's his name,
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"Give me liberty
or give me death."
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Patrick Henry. Patrick Henry.
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They settled on
a religiously open,
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or actually a
religiously neutral structure,
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but they all had establishment,
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they had a history
of as you mentioned
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in another program of
hanging Quakers and so on.
00:10:01.10\00:10:06.84
In my view
looking at the US history,
00:10:06.87\00:10:09.57
the antagonisms of
religion was constant
00:10:09.60\00:10:13.78
and ever present here
as anywhere in Europe.
00:10:13.81\00:10:16.11
The difference was,
00:10:16.14\00:10:17.48
there were so
many things going on,
00:10:17.51\00:10:19.51
you seldom had,
00:10:19.55\00:10:20.92
like we have today in
some African countries
00:10:20.95\00:10:23.49
where the country split
between Islam and Christianity
00:10:23.52\00:10:26.89
and said, this is sort
of a religious civil war.
00:10:26.92\00:10:28.76
You couldn't
have that in America
00:10:28.79\00:10:30.43
with so many different groups.
00:10:30.46\00:10:32.49
But it was not a pleasant sight
00:10:32.53\00:10:35.03
and yet they
consciously set that aside.
00:10:35.06\00:10:37.97
Is it just
because of John Locke...
00:10:38.00\00:10:39.77
Well...
00:10:39.80\00:10:41.14
The object lesson of
bad history behind them.
00:10:41.17\00:10:46.81
So there is
more than one factor,
00:10:46.84\00:10:48.48
we can't say there was Luther
and the Anabaptists and Locke
00:10:48.51\00:10:53.08
and therefore
separation in America.
00:10:53.11\00:10:55.58
We have to acknowledge
these other influences.
00:10:55.62\00:10:57.39
There was a great deal of
religious diversity in America.
00:10:57.42\00:11:00.16
As a practical matter
tolerance was a good thing,
00:11:00.19\00:11:03.22
but that on its own
wouldn't have been enough,
00:11:03.26\00:11:05.46
because the New England colonies
00:11:05.49\00:11:06.83
were not very
diverse, were they?
00:11:06.86\00:11:08.46
They were
puritan, and therefore,
00:11:08.50\00:11:10.00
it was just the
matter of diversity,
00:11:10.03\00:11:11.57
they would have stayed that way.
00:11:11.60\00:11:13.77
Pennsylvania
itself became diverse
00:11:13.80\00:11:17.11
because it had a preexisting
commitment to religious freedom
00:11:17.14\00:11:20.78
which then
produced the diversity.
00:11:20.81\00:11:23.21
So a number of scholars
and historians like to say,
00:11:23.24\00:11:26.05
"Well, it was so diverse,
00:11:26.08\00:11:27.42
they had no choice
but to be tolerant."
00:11:27.45\00:11:29.08
But that still overlook
some important historical facts
00:11:29.12\00:11:31.89
about which came first,
00:11:31.92\00:11:33.52
and in the
instance of Pennsylvania,
00:11:33.56\00:11:35.56
it was the principle commitment
to diversity that came
00:11:35.59\00:11:38.63
before diversity appeared.
00:11:38.66\00:11:41.13
I'll throw a, not a wrench...
00:11:41.16\00:11:42.93
A wrench? A curve
ball? I don't disagree.
00:11:42.96\00:11:45.70
But, while the US
has a discrete history
00:11:45.73\00:11:49.84
and it's a very different
country now than England.
00:11:49.87\00:11:52.67
I think the things
that were happening
00:11:52.71\00:11:54.48
in the colonies were
happening in other country,
00:11:54.51\00:11:58.45
then later
happened in Australia.
00:11:58.48\00:12:00.15
I think there was
this rising tide of civil
00:12:00.18\00:12:06.29
and religious freedoms
00:12:06.32\00:12:08.06
that was going to
breakout regardless.
00:12:08.09\00:12:10.46
There was a growth
00:12:10.49\00:12:11.83
in the sense of the
importance of the individual.
00:12:11.86\00:12:13.46
Yeah.
00:12:13.50\00:12:14.83
But what drove that growth
00:12:14.86\00:12:16.20
in the sense of the
importance of the individual?
00:12:16.23\00:12:18.60
And I think it was these
theological constructs, right.
00:12:18.63\00:12:22.47
Because, you know,
you mentioned before
00:12:22.50\00:12:24.77
about establish
church in England
00:12:24.81\00:12:28.51
and not in Australia.
00:12:28.54\00:12:30.08
I think England has got
what the US Supreme Court
00:12:30.11\00:12:33.55
nicely referred to
as ceremonial deism.
00:12:33.58\00:12:35.88
Right.
00:12:35.92\00:12:37.25
I think the establishment
in England is powerless,
00:12:37.29\00:12:40.79
it's just a historical curiosity
00:12:40.82\00:12:43.16
but the social development
00:12:43.19\00:12:45.19
that has led to the
separation of church
00:12:45.23\00:12:47.23
and state which they
clearly have in England
00:12:47.26\00:12:49.46
in the practical
sense so separated,
00:12:49.50\00:12:51.63
it became very secular society.
00:12:51.67\00:12:55.54
I think this was
developing and bubbling up,
00:12:55.57\00:12:57.71
and John Locke
is probably the...
00:12:57.74\00:13:01.38
If not the then, very
much the central figure.
00:13:01.41\00:13:04.08
John Locke influences
the thinkers in Virginia,
00:13:04.11\00:13:07.62
Jefferson and Madison.
00:13:07.65\00:13:09.22
He also writes part of
the Carolina Constitution
00:13:09.25\00:13:13.59
specifically the
part on religious freedom.
00:13:13.62\00:13:16.52
What about...
00:13:16.56\00:13:18.59
I'm bad on names, the guy
that favor the patriots and...
00:13:18.63\00:13:23.37
Favor the
patriots in that story.
00:13:23.40\00:13:24.83
What's the
Americans pamphlet writer?
00:13:24.87\00:13:30.17
Oh, Thomas Paine? Thomas Paine.
00:13:30.21\00:13:33.44
Who is under the frown of us...
00:13:33.48\00:13:36.38
Well, he wrote common sense
00:13:36.41\00:13:38.41
obviously the
well-known pamphlet there
00:13:38.45\00:13:40.58
in which he appeals to
notions of Protestantism
00:13:40.62\00:13:45.55
that as we wouldn't
have a pope in the church,
00:13:45.59\00:13:48.22
so we shouldn't have
a king in our politics.
00:13:48.26\00:13:51.29
But later on, he
writes pamphlets attacking
00:13:51.33\00:13:54.86
both organized
religion and revelation.
00:13:54.90\00:13:56.23
That's where I
think he comes in frown
00:13:56.26\00:13:58.10
of some of our own
religious writers in Adventism.
00:13:58.13\00:14:01.80
That's right.
00:14:01.84\00:14:03.17
But I do think some
of his early stuff is
00:14:03.20\00:14:05.57
exactly the same as John
Locke in the prevailing mood
00:14:05.61\00:14:09.51
and it sped it all along.
00:14:09.54\00:14:10.88
And he goes off the
rails with his age of reason.
00:14:10.91\00:14:12.85
Right, yeah.
00:14:12.88\00:14:14.22
We'll be back
after a short break.
00:14:14.25\00:14:15.58
Stay with us.
00:14:15.62\00:14:16.95