Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:04.97\00:00:06.74
Before the break
with Nick Miller,
00:00:06.77\00:00:09.07
we were going hammer
and tongs on history.
00:00:09.10\00:00:10.97
Yeah, we're talking about
00:00:11.01\00:00:12.34
500 years of
protest and liberty.
00:00:12.37\00:00:13.71
Just a backdrop
of the discussion.
00:00:13.74\00:00:15.08
We're in the 17th
century, Liberty500.org,
00:00:15.11\00:00:19.45
and we've gotten up to
talking about John Locke,
00:00:19.48\00:00:22.68
great enlightenment thinker.
00:00:22.72\00:00:24.32
And the precursors to of
course the American experiment,
00:00:24.35\00:00:29.19
which even though this is not...
00:00:29.22\00:00:31.09
The United States has never been
00:00:31.13\00:00:32.89
a Christian nation
or a protestant nation,
00:00:32.93\00:00:35.16
it was an overwhelmingly
protestant society,
00:00:35.20\00:00:39.67
and I think the story
of Protestantism played out
00:00:39.70\00:00:42.17
through the
American experience big time.
00:00:42.20\00:00:44.61
So a lot of people
00:00:44.64\00:00:45.97
when they hear
the name John Locke
00:00:46.01\00:00:47.34
think enlightenment,
secular liberal thinker.
00:00:47.38\00:00:50.05
But if you go back
and you read about him
00:00:50.08\00:00:52.08
as you can do in our book here,
00:00:52.11\00:00:54.22
it's clear that he's a
deeply religious thinker,
00:00:54.25\00:00:56.62
he writes
commentaries on the Bible,
00:00:56.65\00:00:58.92
he comes from a
puritan background,
00:00:58.95\00:01:01.12
he embeds much of
his philosophical thought
00:01:01.16\00:01:05.06
within biblical
foundations and roots.
00:01:05.09\00:01:08.76
And he sort of channels
dissenting Protestant thought
00:01:08.80\00:01:13.27
about the right
of private judgment,
00:01:13.30\00:01:14.94
the priesthood of believers,
00:01:14.97\00:01:16.37
and expresses it in
more philosophical language.
00:01:16.40\00:01:18.64
That's a good point.
00:01:18.67\00:01:20.01
I've never really
thought of it like that,
00:01:20.04\00:01:21.94
but he did
reinterpret Protestantism
00:01:21.98\00:01:25.48
into secular models.
00:01:25.51\00:01:27.18
Well, and to be
fair, this needs to be done
00:01:27.22\00:01:30.75
because if you're
going to make a rule
00:01:30.79\00:01:32.65
about separating
church and state,
00:01:32.69\00:01:35.22
you can't base the rule
entirely on scriptural teaching
00:01:35.26\00:01:38.63
or it becomes a
self-defeating principle.
00:01:38.66\00:01:40.50
You're using a biblical teaching
00:01:40.53\00:01:41.86
to make a rule
00:01:41.90\00:01:43.23
that there can be
no Biblical teachings
00:01:43.26\00:01:44.60
for public policy.
00:01:44.63\00:01:45.97
And it seems to
me this is something
00:01:46.00\00:01:47.74
that we need to have
an article in Liberty.
00:01:47.77\00:01:50.27
If you go by analogy,
00:01:50.31\00:01:52.17
it's harder to
get it from the Bible,
00:01:52.21\00:01:54.04
if you go from principle,
00:01:54.08\00:01:55.44
it's easy to
get it in the Bible,
00:01:55.48\00:01:57.08
particularly the New Testament.
00:01:57.11\00:01:58.45
Especially...
00:01:58.48\00:01:59.81
People throw up analogy,
00:01:59.85\00:02:01.18
you know, in the Old Testament,
it's not so self-evident.
00:02:01.22\00:02:03.72
The freedom of the individual,
00:02:03.75\00:02:05.25
the freedom of
the Christian man,
00:02:05.29\00:02:07.39
but what Locke reminds us
00:02:07.42\00:02:09.32
is some people view him
as an intermediate figure,
00:02:09.36\00:02:11.66
perhaps between Protestantism
and the enlightenment,
00:02:11.69\00:02:17.67
secular political thought,
00:02:17.70\00:02:19.83
but I think it's
better to think of him
00:02:19.87\00:02:21.67
as a middle way.
00:02:21.70\00:02:24.31
And there are two
other contrasting positions
00:02:24.34\00:02:26.94
that are also being
articulated at the same time.
00:02:26.98\00:02:29.44
We talked earlier about
the magisterial protestants,
00:02:29.48\00:02:32.15
Calvin and Luther,
00:02:32.18\00:02:33.58
they don't fall that far away
from the Catholic tradition,
00:02:33.62\00:02:36.69
they believed that the priests,
00:02:36.72\00:02:38.75
I mean, that the priests
should work with the princes
00:02:38.79\00:02:42.09
and that princes can
help oversee the church
00:02:42.12\00:02:44.73
and even punish heresy.
00:02:44.76\00:02:46.39
It's an interesting point
that is often not brought out.
00:02:46.43\00:02:48.96
The Lutheran
Church as it once existed
00:02:49.00\00:02:53.67
and the Episcopal Church
00:02:53.70\00:02:55.30
really there are
some doctrinal differences
00:02:55.34\00:02:57.57
but they kept the
whole form and style
00:02:57.61\00:02:59.97
and dynamic of the old Church.
00:03:00.01\00:03:01.84
The Anglican
Church was a state church.
00:03:01.88\00:03:03.65
Yeah. Overseen by the king.
00:03:03.68\00:03:05.38
So you had, Protestantism
is not just one thing,
00:03:05.41\00:03:08.95
you have at least two branches,
the magisterial version
00:03:08.98\00:03:12.42
which there was a thinker
by the name of Pufendorf,
00:03:12.45\00:03:16.19
the American puritans
continue in this line, right.
00:03:16.22\00:03:19.09
New England is not...
00:03:19.13\00:03:20.96
We think of the pilgrims
going to America for freedom,
00:03:21.00\00:03:24.43
but the puritans went
there for their own freedom,
00:03:24.47\00:03:27.54
but if the Quakers
came through their colonies,
00:03:27.57\00:03:30.07
they would eject them.
00:03:30.11\00:03:31.44
And if they came back,
00:03:31.47\00:03:32.81
they actually
hung several Quakers
00:03:32.84\00:03:34.18
on Boston Common.
00:03:34.21\00:03:35.54
So you have this
two Protestant views,
00:03:35.58\00:03:39.08
one where the individual is free
00:03:39.11\00:03:41.15
and the church and
state are really separate,
00:03:41.18\00:03:43.49
another, which is more
like the medieval view.
00:03:43.52\00:03:45.85
But there's a third view
00:03:45.89\00:03:47.22
that we should
mention at this point.
00:03:47.26\00:03:49.09
It's a more secularist view
00:03:49.12\00:03:50.83
that wants to say
00:03:50.86\00:03:53.40
we really can't
know truths about God,
00:03:53.43\00:03:56.36
about religious
doctrine, and therefore,
00:03:56.40\00:03:59.33
we should
separate church and state
00:03:59.37\00:04:01.57
because religious people,
00:04:01.60\00:04:04.37
their convictions are too strong
00:04:04.41\00:04:06.01
for the public square.
00:04:06.04\00:04:07.41
And we're going to
separate church and state
00:04:07.44\00:04:09.68
not because they
are these equal spheres
00:04:09.71\00:04:11.65
that need to be
equally respected
00:04:11.68\00:04:13.58
but because religious
people are sort of dangerous.
00:04:13.62\00:04:16.89
And this third view,
00:04:16.92\00:04:18.32
there's a fellow
called Pierre Bayle,
00:04:18.35\00:04:21.19
you certainly heard,
00:04:21.22\00:04:23.06
listeners have,
of Thomas Jefferson.
00:04:23.09\00:04:25.19
Thomas Jefferson
00:04:25.23\00:04:26.56
was very suspicious
of organized religion.
00:04:26.59\00:04:28.90
Now, you know, we're
jumping into the 18th century
00:04:28.93\00:04:30.77
but wanting to show
00:04:30.80\00:04:32.13
how these ideas
in the 17th century.
00:04:32.17\00:04:33.50
I think that, further,
00:04:33.54\00:04:34.87
he was
suspicious of all religion.
00:04:34.90\00:04:36.24
All religion, he
thought that church and state
00:04:36.27\00:04:39.24
should be separate
00:04:39.27\00:04:40.61
because of the problems
00:04:40.64\00:04:42.74
of religious orthodoxy and zeal.
00:04:42.78\00:04:45.91
And so this is
happening in the 17th century.
00:04:45.95\00:04:49.32
There are these three pathways
opening up to go forward on.
00:04:49.35\00:04:53.15
And if we look
at the 18th century,
00:04:53.19\00:04:56.02
we can see countries
00:04:56.06\00:04:57.69
that alternatively
took these pathways.
00:04:57.73\00:04:59.73
So I would argue
00:04:59.76\00:05:01.10
and we'll talk about it
more in our next program
00:05:01.13\00:05:03.06
that America takes
00:05:03.10\00:05:04.43
the dissenting
protestant pathway,
00:05:04.47\00:05:06.50
whereas European nations
continue on the magisterial,
00:05:06.53\00:05:10.24
keep church and
state together pathway.
00:05:10.27\00:05:12.71
But places like France,
in the French Revolution,
00:05:12.74\00:05:17.21
they jump on to this
skeptical enlightenment
00:05:17.25\00:05:20.75
pathway of
marginalizing religion,
00:05:20.78\00:05:23.99
keeping it out
of the public square
00:05:24.02\00:05:26.32
because it's dangerous.
00:05:26.35\00:05:27.69
Well, the
skeptical enlightenment
00:05:27.72\00:05:29.06
preceded the riff of the
French Revolution, didn't it?
00:05:29.09\00:05:32.23
Well, that's right.
00:05:32.26\00:05:33.60
The French
Revolution is a product of...
00:05:33.63\00:05:35.46
And I think,
I've never read this,
00:05:35.50\00:05:39.53
I've never heard anyone say this
00:05:39.57\00:05:40.90
but I think
00:05:40.94\00:05:42.70
after the Thirty Years' War
and the Treaty of Westphalia
00:05:42.74\00:05:48.44
which really established
00:05:48.48\00:05:50.65
hodgepodge of Catholic
and Protestant countries
00:05:50.68\00:05:53.28
and Catholic
France continued on,
00:05:53.31\00:05:56.38
I think the established
church overdid itself
00:05:56.42\00:05:59.45
and caused the reformation.
00:05:59.49\00:06:02.56
It's Exhibit A. Yeah.
00:06:02.59\00:06:04.19
And if Luther hadn't come along,
00:06:04.23\00:06:05.99
what might have
happened in the rest of Europe.
00:06:06.03\00:06:08.56
That's a worthwhile hypothesis.
00:06:08.60\00:06:09.96
The autocratic
tendencies of the church
00:06:10.00\00:06:13.23
were insufferable at that time.
00:06:13.27\00:06:16.10
That was the direct
cause of the French Revolution,
00:06:16.14\00:06:18.71
not just the philosophers.
00:06:18.74\00:06:21.54
They laid the groundwork
00:06:21.58\00:06:22.91
for when the reaction
against the church came,
00:06:22.94\00:06:24.91
then they went
into a secular thing
00:06:24.95\00:06:26.55
rather than a
religious dictatorship
00:06:26.58\00:06:30.02
like in England.
00:06:30.05\00:06:31.39
So we'll talk more
about the French Revolution
00:06:31.42\00:06:32.79
in the next program
on the 18th century.
00:06:32.82\00:06:34.16
Okay, sorry. Not
keeping to the situation.
00:06:34.19\00:06:36.39
But we're coming to
the last few minutes here
00:06:36.42\00:06:38.56
and I'd like to
talk about today,
00:06:38.59\00:06:41.10
can we see...
00:06:41.13\00:06:42.46
Oh, you're even going further.
00:06:42.50\00:06:43.83
Well, can we see
these three elements
00:06:43.87\00:06:46.20
today in our world?
00:06:46.23\00:06:48.37
Because usually we
break it down to a conflict
00:06:48.40\00:06:51.11
between religion and secularism.
00:06:51.14\00:06:53.74
But if we think in terms of,
00:06:53.78\00:06:55.11
no, there's three sorts of
ways of thinking about this,
00:06:55.14\00:06:58.98
do we have those three today?
00:06:59.01\00:07:00.48
And if so, what are
they, where can they be seen?
00:07:00.52\00:07:02.68
With different variations. Yeah.
00:07:02.72\00:07:04.95
Well.
00:07:04.99\00:07:06.45
Do we have the
magisterial Protestant
00:07:06.49\00:07:09.79
approach being
advocated these days?
00:07:09.82\00:07:13.80
You might see it if
you look hard enough,
00:07:13.83\00:07:15.66
but I think
Protestantism is drifted
00:07:15.70\00:07:19.07
to an anemic version
of itself in every way.
00:07:19.10\00:07:20.80
Well, but what
about the religious right
00:07:20.84\00:07:23.44
that really does want
to gain political power?
00:07:23.47\00:07:25.51
Oh, an attitude.
00:07:25.54\00:07:26.91
I thought you meant a country.
00:07:26.94\00:07:28.31
Well, no. Or a
national grouping.
00:07:28.34\00:07:29.71
Trying to do
it. Absolutely, yes.
00:07:29.74\00:07:32.75
Trying to take government monies
00:07:32.78\00:07:34.22
into religious efforts.
00:07:34.25\00:07:35.95
Well, as I often say,
00:07:35.98\00:07:38.95
the concerns I
share, nearly all of them,
00:07:38.99\00:07:41.06
I think that's something
00:07:41.09\00:07:42.42
that should stir all Christians,
00:07:42.46\00:07:43.79
but they've
grasped the poison pill
00:07:43.83\00:07:45.89
or grasped, not that...
00:07:45.93\00:07:48.06
Taken the poison pill and grasp
00:07:48.10\00:07:49.43
the nettle of political
path to solve the problem,
00:07:49.46\00:07:52.33
and that's a
magisterial approach.
00:07:52.37\00:07:53.70
Well, this is the
magisterial approach.
00:07:53.74\00:07:55.07
And then on the secular side,
we have no doubt about that
00:07:55.10\00:07:57.91
that there is a
secular orthodoxy
00:07:57.94\00:08:00.14
that is trying to
suppress traditional sexuality,
00:08:00.18\00:08:03.08
and family, and
religious freedom
00:08:03.11\00:08:05.15
in the name of a
kind of French Revolution,
00:08:05.18\00:08:08.18
equality, egalitarianism
that's very secular in nature.
00:08:08.22\00:08:11.75
Where would you put
00:08:11.79\00:08:13.12
the protestant
sensibility of a country
00:08:13.15\00:08:15.39
like Australia or
England for that matter?
00:08:15.42\00:08:17.53
Well, you know,
all of these countries,
00:08:17.56\00:08:19.79
so England has an
established church,
00:08:19.83\00:08:22.66
Australia doesn't,
00:08:22.70\00:08:24.43
and yet most of these
countries have been impacted
00:08:24.47\00:08:27.27
by dissenting Protestantism.
00:08:27.30\00:08:29.74
And I would say that Australia
00:08:29.77\00:08:32.24
has a separation
of church and state
00:08:32.27\00:08:34.48
that was much like America's,
00:08:34.51\00:08:35.91
which was a product
00:08:35.94\00:08:37.28
of the dissenting
Protestant viewpoint
00:08:37.31\00:08:39.85
but is being pushed
00:08:39.88\00:08:41.78
in a secular
enlightenment direction.
00:08:41.82\00:08:44.25
So there's an attempt to keep
00:08:44.29\00:08:45.82
religion and religious
ideas out of the public square,
00:08:45.85\00:08:49.16
to stop the teaching of creation
00:08:49.19\00:08:51.69
or traditional
sexuality in schools.
00:08:51.73\00:08:54.86
It's not so much
by law in Australia
00:08:54.90\00:08:57.00
just as by public consensus,
00:08:57.03\00:08:59.83
they don't want
to know about them.
00:08:59.87\00:09:01.20
Peer pressure.
00:09:01.24\00:09:02.57
The constitution
was directly modeled
00:09:02.60\00:09:04.24
on the US Constitution.
00:09:04.27\00:09:05.64
Right. As far as the
separation of church and state.
00:09:05.67\00:09:07.01
Yeah, it's set up
well and it functions okay,
00:09:07.04\00:09:11.51
but there's a huge drift away
00:09:11.55\00:09:13.18
from religious commitment
of any kind by most people.
00:09:13.21\00:09:15.95
Well, I would
propose that really
00:09:15.98\00:09:17.95
to understand
today's political framework,
00:09:17.99\00:09:20.49
you have to see
these three contestants,
00:09:20.52\00:09:24.63
not just two...
00:09:24.66\00:09:25.99
It's a good point. And I
think that's a good tool to use.
00:09:26.03\00:09:27.50
Because otherwise there's no...
00:09:27.53\00:09:29.36
You're forced to choose
00:09:29.40\00:09:30.73
between these
extreme religious people
00:09:30.77\00:09:32.23
who you think want to
bring in their religion
00:09:32.27\00:09:34.07
and impose it
00:09:34.10\00:09:35.44
or these
secularists who are imposing
00:09:35.47\00:09:37.91
this secular
sexual worldview on us.
00:09:37.94\00:09:41.64
And I would argue
that we often overlook
00:09:41.68\00:09:44.08
this dissenting Protestant
view that has a healthy respect
00:09:44.11\00:09:46.75
for the separation
of church and state
00:09:46.78\00:09:48.85
but a positive
respect for religion.
00:09:48.88\00:09:50.89
A lot of it reminds
me of the old Goon Show.
00:09:50.92\00:09:53.66
The Goon Show, wow.
00:09:53.69\00:09:55.02
The comedy show and it says,
00:09:55.06\00:09:56.39
"It's all in
the mind, you know."
00:09:56.42\00:09:57.76
And a state of mind in applying
these Protestant principles
00:09:57.79\00:10:01.16
makes all the difference
when the assumption varies.
00:10:01.20\00:10:04.03
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
00:10:04.07\00:10:05.80
Well, the question of whether
00:10:05.83\00:10:09.40
we will appreciate our
dissenting Protestant view
00:10:09.44\00:10:12.64
or allow that
view to be obscured
00:10:12.67\00:10:14.68
by the extremes of secularism
00:10:14.71\00:10:17.18
and a resurgent medieval
00:10:17.21\00:10:20.95
sort of Protestant
outlook comes to us all,
00:10:20.98\00:10:24.15
and it's a framework I think
00:10:24.19\00:10:25.62
which will help us understand
our politics more fully.
00:10:25.65\00:10:28.89
It's a revelation to most people
00:10:28.92\00:10:30.59
to discover that
England in the 1600s
00:10:30.63\00:10:34.10
was such a
cauldron of religious fervor
00:10:34.13\00:10:37.27
and political divisiveness
00:10:37.30\00:10:41.30
that they
actually had a civil war
00:10:41.34\00:10:43.97
that began on political matters
00:10:44.01\00:10:45.61
but ended in a
religious civil war
00:10:45.64\00:10:48.71
fought by the
Protestant parliamentarians
00:10:48.74\00:10:51.21
against the king
and his Catholic allies.
00:10:51.25\00:10:54.42
And indeed when
the king was captured,
00:10:54.45\00:10:56.92
and from his captivity,
00:10:56.95\00:10:58.59
connived to bring
in a Catholic army
00:10:58.62\00:11:01.09
to relieve his
cause, he lost his life.
00:11:01.12\00:11:06.19
And it was on that charge
00:11:06.23\00:11:08.43
that he betrayed a
Protestant England.
00:11:08.46\00:11:11.83
Today, in the United States,
00:11:11.87\00:11:13.94
much of what goes on
00:11:13.97\00:11:15.30
I believe harks back to
the dynamic of the puritans
00:11:15.34\00:11:18.44
gaining political
power in their own right.
00:11:18.47\00:11:21.91
As Christians
and as Protestants,
00:11:21.94\00:11:23.45
we need to make sure that
this does not happen again.
00:11:23.48\00:11:29.32
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:11:29.35\00:11:32.19