Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program
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that you can
follow the latest updates,
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analysis and
discussion on religious liberty
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on this program
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Professor Nic
Miller, author of...
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Oh, yes.
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A very significant book
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that we need to
talk a little bit about.
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500 Years of
Protest and Liberty,
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Martin Luther to
modern civil rights.
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This year is the
500th anniversary
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of the Protestant Reformation.
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And so, I've
gathered many articles
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I've written over the
years for Liberty magazine,
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added some material for today
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and none other
than Lincoln Steed
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has the forward in the book.
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You can get a
copy at Liberty500.com,
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and for every
book that's ordered,
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we're giving free subscriptions
to Liberty magazine.
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Sounds a pretty
good combination...
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So it's a great, a
great combination...
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Now, this is a fantastic
outline of the Reformation
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which we're remembering now
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but it's more than
just remembering it
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like a birthday or something.
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This is such a
seminal development
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into the form of
religion and religious liberty
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that we have today
in the United States.
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It explains, it
explains the conflicts
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we have in society today.
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And what we've done
is we're doing a program
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on each of the centuries,
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so we've done the
16th century Martin Luther
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the priesthood of believers
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and how the
priesthood of believers
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created the framework of
freedom to study the Bible
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which meant that church
and state should be separate.
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The state
shouldn't be telling you
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how to study the Bible
and what the Bible teaches.
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Sounds good today.
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If you listen to this program
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always hear about
separation of church and state,
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before Luther that
was antithetical concept.
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It didn't exist...
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And a lot of people think
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that it's a
secular enlightenment idea.
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We don't trust
those religious people,
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we have to push them
out of the public sector.
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But in reality its roots lay
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in the Protestant Reformation
understanding of Sola scriptura
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and the priesthood of believers.
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Well, yes I agree with you.
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I do believe
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that the developing
enlightenment thought
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which emphasized the...
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I'm trying to think of...
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there's line from Fast
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where he talks
about the unbounded soul.
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Okay.
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You know, I do think
intellectual development
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in the renaissance and beyond
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that sort of
emphasized the individual
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and the Protestant
Reform is picked up
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on that, that frame of mind
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because it wouldn't
have come at them naturally
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from within the church.
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So you had a
renaissance humanism in Italy,
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but the renaissance humanists
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they did
emphasize the individual,
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but they didn't have a
big concept of individualism
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in terms of religious
ideas or religious ideology.
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And it took really Martin Luther
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and we moved, we recognize
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that Martin Luther
in our last program
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and Calvin stayed with
for a variety of reasons
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what we call
magisterial Protestantism
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which is the
kind of Protestantism
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that combines church and state.
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So Calvin's Geneva,
Luther worked with the princes,
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but his ideas were picked
up and used by the Anabaptists
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who did believe in a strong
separation of church and state.
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And after
Luther and Calvin died,
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the Anabaptist become
significant in the Netherlands
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and they're the English Baptists
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and we should perhaps talk about
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the English Reformation,
Henry the VIII and his death,
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King Edward for a few years
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and then it
reverts back to Catholicism
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under Queen Mary.
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Bloody Queen Mary...
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Who kills,
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at least there's 300
martyrs during her reign.
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Many of the
Protestants in England escape
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and go to Geneva where
they study under Calvin
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causing British Protestantism,
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at least a part of it
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to have a strong
Calvinistic emphasis...
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So you connected
them to the Puritan.
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Well, and then
the Puritans arise
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because they're never
happy with the kind of halfway
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Reformation that Queen Elizabeth
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carries out in the church.
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And hence their
name the Puritans...
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You've missed a few...
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Okay, well, what do
you think we need to...
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Well, this is my...
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idee fixe on history.
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All right. I love history.
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But in the mid 1600s
which is our century, right?
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Yeah. The century.
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There was a
civil war in England...
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Oh, no, I'm still
before that because the...
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I'm sorry... Well,
you jumped over to...
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No, the end of the 16th century
is when the Puritans rise
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and then they develop
into the 17th century.
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Some of them come to America
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and they take the
Bible very seriously.
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Purify the church in
England, if you can't purify it,
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you leave it and
you become pilgrims
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and go to America,
you settle in New England.
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But now we're getting
to the civil war period.
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That's Massachusetts
Bay... Massachusetts Bay.
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The Puritans that go to America
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do so because
of some persecution
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that happens in the 1630s
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but those that stay
around confront the king
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and soon there is a civil war.
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Parliament is made
up mostly of Puritans
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and it opposes the camp.
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Yeah, now they didn't confront
him on a religious question.
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Okay.
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And that's why I think...
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The Reformation of
course is everything
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when you talk about religious
freedom and Protestantism
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separating from the
monolithic dictatorial church.
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But you can't see
these things in isolation.
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There were social developments,
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there were
political developments,
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and in England
there was a long dispute
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that actually went back
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to the more liberal
style of rule in England
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where they needed
to call a parliament
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to raise money for wars.
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And so the kings
tried to rule by faith,
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but every now and again
they'd have to call parliament.
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And King Charles,
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the first king of
England and of Scotland
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which was a very unusual period.
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He begrudgingly after many years
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of having dismissed
parliament called them again,
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and in the meantime as you said
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they'd become primarily a
Protestant assembly of Puritan.
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The Puritan
assembly. Yeah. Right.
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And they didn't like his style.
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They tried to have some control
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as a condition of
giving out the money
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so he dismissed them again.
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Well, but let's not
minimize the religious elements
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because clearly
he had to call it
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because he
needed to raise an army
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and he needed taxes for that.
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But the reason that he didn't
want to bring them together
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was because the
Puritans were against
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his style of church government.
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They were against his
wife, his wife was Catholic.
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Well against his wife...
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And they believed that
he was trying to recath,
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catholicize England
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and the singular
event was Archbishop Lord
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of the Church of England,
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he was a high churchman,
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this is the Church of England
was for most of its history.
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Changed the book
of common prayer...
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And they were convinced
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that this was
bringing in Catholicism again.
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So there was deep
suspicion on a religious level
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as he convened parliament.
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But it was all
about raising money.
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Charles believed
in the episcopacy
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which is the bishop coming
down appointed by the king.
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He believed in the
heavy hand of the authority.
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The Puritans wanted a presbytery
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which was elders
elected by the church body
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and these two
competing systems clashed
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and a civil war broke out.
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And in fact...
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But it wasn't
religious initially.
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It had religious undercurrent.
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It turned into a religious war
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when Charles appealed to
Catholic friends for help.
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And he, and this is why
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they cut his
head off in the end.
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They found that
he'd been conspiring
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to bring a Catholic
army into England...
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So they cut his head
off and for the first time
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you had a
government of the godly.
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Parliament was now in charge
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who was the Lord
Protector, who was the...
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Oliver
Cromwell. Oliver Cromwell.
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The head of the army
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who was himself a
dedicated Puritan.
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In fact, he once
said, I'd rather have,
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I forget the number but say
20 of my hymn singing Puritans
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than, you know, the whole
army of the fancy cavaliers.
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Now there is an
important distinction to be made
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that we say Puritan
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and we think it means one group,
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but Oliver
Cromwell was an independent,
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not a Presbyterian.
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Now we're getting
into some of the minutiae
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of the British Civil War...
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Very few of them were
Puritans, were Presbyterians.
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Well, most of
parliament were Presbyterians
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and they wanted to
impose religion through law...
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Yeah, we're dealing in history.
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But it, but it contracted down
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and that's the
accusation against Cromwell
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which is probably correct
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that he only worked with
those that he was comfortable,
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then he worked things
down to get a Rump Parliament
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and even to get the
king's execution that...
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he got rid of most of
the nominal Protestants
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and just had a little
tight group of mostly Puritans
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who signed the death warrant.
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But Cromwell
being an independent
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was actually more tolerant
of religious differences
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than were the Presbyterians.
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Oh, he's very tolerant
in according to the time.
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He allowed the Cath, he
allowed Jews in England,
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he was actually going to
tolerate Catholics in England.
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He sent a force and
source of money over
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to protect the Waldenses, right?
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I'm glad you know
it, most people don't.
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Who were being
persecuted in England.
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Well, he was so offended
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that at the
mistreatment by the...
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was the Duke of Savoy I think
of the Waldenses that he said,
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if they didn't
cease immediately,
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he would personally
lead an English army
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to relieve them.
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And there were at
least a couple of authors
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who wrote during this
period that are very important,
00:10:02.86\00:10:04.90
one is John Milton, right?
00:10:04.93\00:10:07.20
After Shakespeare,
00:10:07.24\00:10:08.57
the greatest author
in the English language.
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John Milton is a Puritan,
00:10:09.97\00:10:11.71
but he is influenced
00:10:11.74\00:10:13.34
by some of these
dissenting Protestants
00:10:13.38\00:10:14.94
we discussed earlier.
00:10:14.98\00:10:16.31
He reads the Baptists writings
00:10:16.34\00:10:18.01
who've been
studying the Anabaptists,
00:10:18.05\00:10:19.61
who've been
studying early Luther,
00:10:19.65\00:10:21.32
and he comes to believe
00:10:21.35\00:10:22.68
in the separation
of church and state.
00:10:22.72\00:10:24.49
He writes that not only should
people have religious freedom
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but in the...
00:10:29.39\00:10:30.73
He has a treatise on
civil and ecclesiastical power.
00:10:30.76\00:10:35.70
And he says that...
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And this was very
advanced view for his day
00:10:37.13\00:10:39.57
that the state should not
pay the salary of ministers,
00:10:39.60\00:10:42.47
that there should
be a real separation
00:10:42.50\00:10:44.17
of church and state.
00:10:44.21\00:10:45.54
I studied that at school, I
haven't read it for years...
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Is that?
00:10:46.94\00:10:48.28
I have a great regard
for Milton, powerful writer.
00:10:48.31\00:10:49.68
So Milton writes
these things very clearly,
00:10:49.71\00:10:52.55
and he puts
these ideas of freedom
00:10:52.58\00:10:55.28
in another document
which is even more influential.
00:10:55.32\00:10:57.99
You've heard of
Paradise Lost, right?
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Paradise Lost is about
war over ideas with the...
00:11:00.52\00:11:04.36
Was the great
controversy of his age.
00:11:04.39\00:11:06.13
Being given the freedom to
choose God or Satan, right?
00:11:06.16\00:11:09.50
Yeah.
00:11:09.53\00:11:10.90
And this view of human freedom
00:11:10.93\00:11:14.20
and the government
of God granting freedom
00:11:14.24\00:11:17.67
and a fight over morality,
00:11:17.71\00:11:21.04
it creates the environment
in the English speaking world,
00:11:21.08\00:11:24.21
the Puritan context.
00:11:24.25\00:11:25.98
The critique of,
00:11:26.01\00:11:27.35
well, there's two
critiques of Paradise Lost.
00:11:27.38\00:11:28.92
All right.
00:11:28.95\00:11:31.65
Samuel Johnson said,
"None wished it longer."
00:11:31.69\00:11:35.82
But I think it's a
good link but it's in...
00:11:35.86\00:11:39.53
Verse.
00:11:39.56\00:11:40.90
Open verse 4,
00:11:40.93\00:11:42.26
but still it's, you
got to trudge through it.
00:11:42.30\00:11:43.77
But if you know the King James,
00:11:43.80\00:11:45.57
it's wonderful similar language.
00:11:45.60\00:11:47.94
And the other critique
is that the hero is Satan.
00:11:47.97\00:11:51.27
And freedom, and I'm
saying that for real...
00:11:51.31\00:11:52.94
Milton didn't mean that.
Others have said that he...
00:11:52.97\00:11:54.31
No, but he gave him
00:11:54.34\00:11:55.68
some of the
most heroic speeches.
00:11:55.71\00:11:57.51
And like his, better to reign
in hell than serve in heaven.
00:11:57.55\00:12:01.78
Better to rule in
hell than serve in heaven.
00:12:01.82\00:12:03.72
Right, yeah.
00:12:03.75\00:12:05.09
But I think he
got himself caught up
00:12:05.12\00:12:08.46
in just the dynamic of the plot,
00:12:08.49\00:12:10.59
but the principles
that he was having Satan
00:12:10.63\00:12:13.80
the numerate were
actually the self determinism
00:12:13.83\00:12:17.73
that came out of Protestantism.
00:12:17.77\00:12:19.57
Well Milton writes
these things very clearly
00:12:19.60\00:12:22.54
a separation of church and state
00:12:22.57\00:12:23.94
like we have in America,
it doesn't get picked up
00:12:23.97\00:12:26.17
but there he sets it
out clearly in written form.
00:12:26.21\00:12:29.11
And then a few
years later John Locke
00:12:29.14\00:12:31.95
who reads Milton
and who also reads
00:12:31.98\00:12:34.18
these Baptists
dissenting Protestant authors
00:12:34.22\00:12:37.22
begins to express very clearly
in a couple of different books.
00:12:37.25\00:12:42.22
His book on the two
treaties on government
00:12:42.26\00:12:45.49
is filled with these
ideas of natural rights
00:12:45.53\00:12:50.47
of worship due only to God
00:12:50.50\00:12:52.63
that shouldn't be
enforced by humanity.
00:12:52.67\00:12:55.44
And he writes another
book on religious toleration
00:12:55.47\00:12:59.87
which really
should be understood
00:12:59.91\00:13:01.24
as religious freedom
as we use it we're today.
00:13:01.28\00:13:03.21
I think it's
pretty easy to prove
00:13:03.24\00:13:05.01
that as far as so
called secular thinker,
00:13:05.05\00:13:08.18
Locke was the singular personage
00:13:08.22\00:13:11.09
that informed the development
of the American republic.
00:13:11.12\00:13:13.49
So here we are
00:13:13.52\00:13:14.86
between the 16th
and the 18th centuries,
00:13:14.89\00:13:16.93
and so this connecting piece
with the British Revolution,
00:13:16.96\00:13:21.40
Locke sees the wars
of religion in England,
00:13:21.43\00:13:25.03
and he begins to realize
that you can't put civil power
00:13:25.07\00:13:29.14
on the side of spiritual beliefs
00:13:29.17\00:13:31.21
that you really need to
separate these two things out.
00:13:31.24\00:13:33.94
And he begins to
clearly state that
00:13:33.98\00:13:36.01
in these writings
that have a profound effect
00:13:36.04\00:13:37.95
on the American
founding fathers.
00:13:37.98\00:13:39.98
Yeah, and a little advertisement
00:13:40.02\00:13:41.45
for Liberty magazine,
00:13:41.48\00:13:42.82
we've had many features on him.
00:13:42.85\00:13:44.29
And I can visually see
on the back cover once,
00:13:44.32\00:13:47.92
we had a powerful
quote from John Locke.
00:13:47.96\00:13:49.92
I can't remember the exact quote
00:13:49.96\00:13:51.69
but I had him in the
sky like the sun king
00:13:51.73\00:13:55.23
shining down on the
American republic...
00:13:55.26\00:13:57.17
He is of great influence.
But it's very interesting.
00:13:57.20\00:13:59.63
Why in Washington there's no,
00:13:59.67\00:14:02.80
that I know of,
there's no big statue
00:14:02.84\00:14:05.61
or commemoration of Locke's role
00:14:05.64\00:14:07.48
but to me he's everywhere
00:14:07.51\00:14:11.08
in the
Declaration of Independence
00:14:11.11\00:14:12.55
and the discussions
00:14:12.58\00:14:13.92
that surrounded
the constitution.
00:14:13.95\00:14:15.28
Well, really James
Madison and Thomas Jefferson
00:14:15.32\00:14:17.79
are bringing Locke to America.
00:14:17.82\00:14:19.45
Absolutely.
00:14:19.49\00:14:20.82
We'll take a break here
00:14:20.86\00:14:22.19
and be back shortly to
continue our discussion.
00:14:22.22\00:14:24.29
Stay with us.
00:14:24.33\00:14:25.66