Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nick Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000365B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break with guest Nick Miller, 00:11 we were back a few years starting with Martin Luther 00:16 and the origins of the Reformation, 00:18 what was going on, of course, your book. 00:19 Talking about 500 Years of Protest and Liberty 00:22 and we're taking the 16th century this time. 00:26 Liberty500.com is where it can be found. 00:30 And we had talked about Martin Luther 00:32 and his reorienting the world 00:34 from being a world with the church 00:37 was at the top with the pope, 00:38 and the cardinals, and the priests 00:40 who attended the masses and the members in the church. 00:43 And he reversed to the bottom half of that pyramid 00:47 causing the membership to be the church 00:51 who directly had access to God and the Bible 00:54 who were then supported by the leaders of the church. 00:57 Oh, he really affected everything. 01:00 It was a political earthquake. 01:02 Germany was under the Holy Roman Empire or Emperor. 01:06 And so that started to break apart. 01:09 The emperor was authoritatively in some ways 01:12 under the religious jurisdiction of the pope, 01:14 he broke that apart. 01:17 People went to their priest, he broke that apart. 01:19 The serfs and others were literally slaves, 01:23 if you like of the rulers, and he broke that apart. 01:26 That's right. 01:28 He changed every societal string that existed. 01:32 And so as we said before the break, 01:34 this priesthood of all believers 01:36 was perhaps the doctrine with the biggest impact 01:39 on the way the world and society worked. 01:42 And I'm not sure if I've asked you this question before. 01:45 Do you know where the word Protestant came from? 01:48 Sure, that was when the German princes protested 01:54 to the emperor that they wanted to stay with this movement. 01:58 Oh. They wanted their faith. 02:00 Very good. 02:01 They weren't gonna give into the Catholic Church. 02:02 Very good, most people have a general thought 02:04 that it had something to do with Martin Luther's protest 02:06 against the abuses of the Catholic Church, 02:08 but it actually comes from a historical event 02:10 as you suggest. 02:11 It's not the Diet of Worms. 02:13 It's the second Diet of Speyer, 1529, 02:16 the Emperor Charles V 02:19 had called all the German princes before him 02:21 and said, look, we have the Turks at the gates, 02:24 this is... 02:26 Absolutely. Contemporary. 02:27 This was the real dynamic. 02:28 I think that drove, 02:30 that enabled it the common fear of Islam. 02:33 Islam, so we need to unify 02:36 as an empire behind one religion. 02:39 And the Protestant princes who supported Luther 02:41 were in the minority, 02:42 but they wrote a formal document 02:44 which is called a Protest. 02:46 And they said in that Protest, in matters of conscience, 02:50 the majority should have no say. 02:52 Remarkable words from just about 500 years though. 02:56 At that point we know 02:57 that the fix was in for the Reformation. 02:59 Before then, it was a rebel priest 03:03 or a theologian who could've ended up badly, 03:06 he might have had some following 03:07 but it wouldn't have come to much 03:09 but for this political conformation, I think. 03:13 And so there was now a group, 03:15 an organized group who stood behind two principles. 03:19 Do-ben-ya, the Protestant historian says 03:21 it was two principles. 03:23 It was one that the authority of the Bible 03:25 was over the church. 03:27 So the church should be corrected by 03:28 and subject to the Bible, 03:29 but also that the individual conscience was over the state, 03:34 over the king. 03:35 And it's really from this point 03:38 that we trace the development of notions 03:41 of freedom of conscience 03:42 and separation of church and state. 03:43 Now, did it happen then? 03:45 Was it immediately instituted? 03:46 No. No. 03:48 In fact, what role do you think 03:49 German nationalism played in this? 03:50 Well, so people like to turn the Reformation away 03:55 from being a religious conflict 03:58 over to more of a political one. 04:00 And the German princes wanted to get away 04:02 from the dominance of the Italians 04:05 and the Italian pope. 04:06 And did that dynamic play a role? 04:09 It would be silly to deny it. 04:10 But was it the primary or central, 04:13 certainly not the only or even primary. 04:15 People in that day wouldn't have been moved 04:18 by purely political arguments 04:20 whereas they felt deeply 04:21 these new religious convictions. 04:23 Yeah, and something that's impressed 04:24 many of, several of those, princes for example, 04:27 they were the deep students of the theology 04:30 which makes sense. 04:31 We would talk about books and printing 04:34 which was developing 04:35 and books though always had been, 04:36 but mass circulation, 04:38 but it still wasn't everyone, 04:40 but the educated gentry and the princelings, 04:44 they had books they were studying. 04:47 Unlike many of our political leaders now, 04:49 they're often just front people for the ideologues. 04:52 For the ideas that are behind. 04:54 But you know, during the Reformation, 04:56 even Henry VIII... 04:57 Wrote a book. 04:59 Well, he writes treatises on prophecy and all the rest. 05:02 Yes. 05:03 I'm sorry to jump ahead, 05:04 but I do believe that many of the rulers 05:08 in those, in that era were well informed. 05:11 And, yes, they had political considerations 05:13 but they thought these things through. 05:15 Well, this idea of the priesthood of believers 05:17 which Luther really develops in his address 05:20 to the German princes in 1521, 05:22 he goes as far as to say 05:24 that the civil magistrate shouldn't have jurisdiction 05:27 over questions of heresy, 05:28 or belief and unbelief about spiritual matters. 05:32 People don't realize he was so radical 05:33 because a few years later, he tempered his views. 05:37 In 1525, there was an uprising of the peasants. 05:40 You know about the peasant's revolt. 05:42 Which I think he instigated that somewhat... 05:45 Well, I think he would have... 05:47 he would certainly have argued with you on that. 05:49 What he didn't anticipate was the actual violence, 05:54 but he encouraged the rise up against 05:57 because there was an element 05:58 of social change in his message. 06:02 Well, but what historians have discovered 06:04 is that there was a regular uprising of peasants 06:08 that happened about every 15 to 20 years. 06:11 It happened about 15 or 20 years earlier 06:14 in a cyclical way before that, 06:16 this time they arose 06:17 because of the oppression of the leadership 06:19 and the aristocracy 06:20 but they had new slogans. 06:23 The freedom of the Christian, right? 06:24 To overthrow their earthly oppressive. 06:26 Well, I've studied this, maybe not as extensively as you 06:30 but I've read all this. 06:31 And Luther did do specific things 06:34 to support and encourage the leadership. 06:37 He wrote pamphlets and so on. 06:39 Well, he... So he was implicated in them. 06:41 His first pamphlet was to caution both sides 06:44 against their excesses. 06:45 But when he saw the peasants using real violence, 06:48 he wrote a pamphlet exhorting the leaders 06:52 to crush and smite and throw down the peasants. 06:56 Pleasantly, they were smitten down more than ever before. 06:58 Well, and perhaps Luther overreacted 07:02 but it does explain why he moved away 07:05 from this notion of separation on church and state. 07:07 He saw this feeding in. 07:09 I think he was wrong about that. 07:11 But what happens is some of the early Lutherans 07:15 who pick up this teaching of early Luther 07:17 about the two kingdoms and the separation of it, 07:19 they become Anabaptists. 07:21 And this is where the story continues 07:23 because the Anabaptists continue to have influence 07:25 in the Netherlands, in other parts of Germany. 07:30 And they eventually influenced the English Baptists. 07:33 And so this early Lutheran thought is kept alive 07:36 even though Calvin and Luther himself 07:39 move away from it, 07:41 and Luther says the prince now needs to teach religion. 07:43 And, of course, Calvin sets up Geneva 07:45 so that the magistrates and the elders work together. 07:49 And he ends up even supporting the execution of a heretic 07:54 who doesn't believe in the Trinity, 07:56 Michael Servetus in 1540s. 07:57 Yeah, we have article on this at Liberty. 07:59 You had an article on that. 08:01 The question I have for you though is, 08:03 we've talked about the priesthood of believers, 08:04 and the importance of the individual, 08:06 and how that helps church and state separate 08:08 and religious freedom grow. 08:10 What do these teachings about Sola scriptura 08:13 and the priesthood of believers, 08:15 how are they relevant today? 08:17 Are we still seeing their importance? 08:20 Are they being called into question? 08:22 What do you think? 08:23 I would say in an era where Biblical literacy 08:27 is historically low, 08:31 Sola scriptura would be a good way to go. 08:33 When we have not only the Pope of Rome 08:37 unchanged in his attitude of leadership 08:40 from the time of Luther, 08:42 but we have other religious leaders 08:43 even within Protestantism 08:45 saying things that are not biblically supported. 08:48 So I think we could create 08:50 our own sort of reformation again in these times. 08:53 People went back to God's word, and read it, and understood it, 08:56 and lived it of course. 08:58 Well, and I think that's a very good point. 09:00 And it's taking... 09:01 You're making that point in the context of 09:03 this 500th anniversary of the Reformation 09:05 is being used as a moment by many groups 09:07 to seek, to bring greater unity 09:09 between Catholics and Protestants, am I right? 09:11 Yeah. Lutheran Church itself... 09:13 And it's unity of forgetfulness. 09:14 Well... 09:16 As the Lutherans themselves deciding that a few years ago 09:20 that it was just a misunderstanding 09:22 between the papacy and Martin Luther, 09:24 not a misunderstanding, 09:25 they both knew very well what was at stake. 09:26 And as I understand, 09:28 one of the worldwide Lutheran federations has now said, 09:30 "There is no teaching or doctrine 09:33 that should keep the Catholic and the Lutheran churches 09:35 apart any longer." 09:36 Is that right? 09:38 Yeah, once they gave away righteousness by faith 09:39 which was tied to Sola scriptura, of course. 09:41 But then I have to ask the question. 09:43 If the priesthood of believers was so central and important 09:46 flowing from the Sola scriptura as redefining society, 09:52 has the Catholic Church really come to accept 09:54 the priesthood of all believers? 09:55 Has it set down questions of table authority? 09:57 No, obviously not. 09:59 We have to give some little credit, 10:00 Vatican II breathed some fresh air 10:04 into the Catholic presentation of its doctrines. 10:08 Even if at root, many of them didn't change. 10:10 And there's an openness 10:12 that Martin Luther never found in his day. 10:14 But basics remain 10:17 and the role of the pope 10:18 certainly is an impediment should be today 10:21 as it still is with Eastern Orthodox Church. 10:23 In fact, I would suggest to you 10:24 that for there to be a real coming together, 10:27 the pope would actually need to change his name. 10:29 Because in Latin, pope actually means papa, doesn't it? 10:33 Yeah. 10:35 And there's this notion of the paternal figure. 10:36 And Bible says, call no man father... 10:38 No man father overseeing scriptural truth. 10:41 And that has not changed, 10:43 and therefore the Protestant Reformation 10:44 is still very much applied. 10:46 No, I think it's easily shown. 10:47 If you go to the root issues 10:48 that replay in Martin Luther's time, 10:50 they still apply. 10:52 It's just that religion is not so important for most people 10:56 and the stakes don't appear so high 10:57 but they're still there. 10:59 And that's why history matters. 11:01 We need to keep in mind the truths of sola scriptura, 11:05 the priesthood of believers 11:06 to truly keep alive religious freedom in our country. 11:11 For many people the image of Martin Luther's 11:14 groundbreaking reformation initiative 500 years ago 11:19 was him nailing those 95 thesis 11:21 to the door of Wittenberg Church. 11:24 For me, the image that sticks with me 11:27 is Martin Luther, 11:28 that same priest turn religious revolutionary, 11:32 burning the pope's bull condemning his doctrines, 11:35 burning it in a public ceremony of rebellion 11:39 against the then religious and political authorities. 11:43 That is the antecedent to what we have today 11:47 in the weaken Protestant Reformation. 11:50 It was revolutionary. 11:52 With Martin Luther, 11:54 it did divert to the peasants' rebellion. 11:56 And at different times, 11:57 violence has derived from religious conflict, 12:00 but at root it is the elevation of the individual, 12:04 his right before God 12:06 and His power as a free will agent 12:09 that has changed the modern world. 12:13 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-07-06