Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Nick Miller,
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we were back a few years
starting with Martin Luther
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and the origins
of the Reformation,
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what was going on,
of course, your book.
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Talking about 500
Years of Protest and Liberty
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and we're taking the
16th century this time.
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Liberty500.com is
where it can be found.
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And we had talked
about Martin Luther
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and his reorienting the world
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from being a
world with the church
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was at the top with the pope,
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and the
cardinals, and the priests
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who attended the masses
and the members in the church.
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And he reversed to the
bottom half of that pyramid
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causing the
membership to be the church
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who directly had
access to God and the Bible
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who were then supported
by the leaders of the church.
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Oh, he really
affected everything.
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It was a political earthquake.
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Germany was under the
Holy Roman Empire or Emperor.
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And so that
started to break apart.
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The emperor was
authoritatively in some ways
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under the religious
jurisdiction of the pope,
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he broke that apart.
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People went to their
priest, he broke that apart.
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The serfs and others
were literally slaves,
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if you like of the
rulers, and he broke that apart.
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That's right.
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He changed every
societal string that existed.
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And so as we
said before the break,
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this priesthood of all believers
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was perhaps the
doctrine with the biggest impact
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on the way the
world and society worked.
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And I'm not sure if I've
asked you this question before.
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Do you know where the
word Protestant came from?
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Sure, that was when the
German princes protested
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to the emperor that they wanted
to stay with this movement.
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Oh. They wanted their faith.
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Very good.
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They weren't gonna give
into the Catholic Church.
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Very good, most
people have a general thought
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that it had something to do
with Martin Luther's protest
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against the abuses
of the Catholic Church,
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but it actually comes
from a historical event
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as you suggest.
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It's not the Diet of Worms.
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It's the second
Diet of Speyer, 1529,
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the Emperor Charles V
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had called all the
German princes before him
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and said, look, we
have the Turks at the gates,
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this is...
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Absolutely. Contemporary.
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This was the real dynamic.
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I think that drove,
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that enabled it the
common fear of Islam.
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Islam, so we need to unify
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as an empire
behind one religion.
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And the Protestant
princes who supported Luther
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were in the minority,
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but they wrote a formal document
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which is called a Protest.
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And they said in that Protest,
in matters of conscience,
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the majority should have no say.
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Remarkable words from
just about 500 years though.
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At that point we know
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that the fix was in
for the Reformation.
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Before then, it
was a rebel priest
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or a theologian who
could've ended up badly,
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he might have had some following
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but it wouldn't
have come to much
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but for this
political conformation, I think.
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And so there was now a group,
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an organized group who
stood behind two principles.
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Do-ben-ya, the
Protestant historian says
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it was two principles.
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It was one that the
authority of the Bible
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was over the church.
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So the church
should be corrected by
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and subject to the Bible,
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but also that the individual
conscience was over the state,
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over the king.
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And it's really from this point
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that we trace the
development of notions
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of freedom of conscience
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and separation
of church and state.
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Now, did it happen then?
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Was it immediately instituted?
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No. No.
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In fact, what role do you think
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German
nationalism played in this?
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Well, so people like to
turn the Reformation away
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from being a religious conflict
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over to more of a political one.
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And the German
princes wanted to get away
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from the
dominance of the Italians
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and the Italian pope.
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And did that
dynamic play a role?
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It would be silly to deny it.
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But was it the
primary or central,
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certainly not the
only or even primary.
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People in that day
wouldn't have been moved
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by purely political arguments
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whereas they felt deeply
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these new religious convictions.
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Yeah, and
something that's impressed
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many of, several of
those, princes for example,
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they were the deep
students of the theology
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which makes sense.
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We would talk
about books and printing
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which was developing
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and books
though always had been,
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but mass circulation,
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but it still wasn't everyone,
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but the educated
gentry and the princelings,
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they had books
they were studying.
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Unlike many of our
political leaders now,
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they're often just front
people for the ideologues.
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For the ideas that are behind.
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But you know,
during the Reformation,
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even Henry VIII...
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Wrote a book.
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Well, he writes treatises
on prophecy and all the rest.
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Yes.
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I'm sorry to jump ahead,
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but I do believe
that many of the rulers
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in those, in that
era were well informed.
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And, yes, they had
political considerations
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but they thought
these things through.
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Well, this idea of the
priesthood of believers
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which Luther really
develops in his address
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to the German princes in 1521,
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he goes as far as to say
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that the civil magistrate
shouldn't have jurisdiction
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over questions of heresy,
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or belief and unbelief
about spiritual matters.
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People don't
realize he was so radical
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because a few years
later, he tempered his views.
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In 1525, there was an
uprising of the peasants.
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You know about
the peasant's revolt.
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Which I think he
instigated that somewhat...
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Well, I think he would have...
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he would certainly have
argued with you on that.
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What he didn't anticipate
was the actual violence,
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but he encouraged
the rise up against
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because there was an element
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of social change in his message.
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Well, but what
historians have discovered
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is that there was a
regular uprising of peasants
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that happened about
every 15 to 20 years.
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It happened about
15 or 20 years earlier
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in a cyclical way before that,
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this time they arose
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because of the
oppression of the leadership
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and the aristocracy
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but they had new slogans.
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The freedom of
the Christian, right?
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To overthrow their
earthly oppressive.
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Well, I've studied this,
maybe not as extensively as you
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but I've read all this.
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And Luther did
do specific things
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to support and
encourage the leadership.
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He wrote pamphlets and so on.
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Well, he... So he
was implicated in them.
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His first pamphlet
was to caution both sides
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against their excesses.
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But when he saw the
peasants using real violence,
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he wrote a pamphlet
exhorting the leaders
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to crush and smite and
throw down the peasants.
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Pleasantly, they were smitten
down more than ever before.
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Well, and perhaps
Luther overreacted
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but it does
explain why he moved away
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from this notion of
separation on church and state.
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He saw this feeding in.
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I think he was wrong about that.
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But what happens is
some of the early Lutherans
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who pick up this
teaching of early Luther
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about the two kingdoms
and the separation of it,
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they become Anabaptists.
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And this is where
the story continues
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because the Anabaptists
continue to have influence
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in the Netherlands, in
other parts of Germany.
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And they eventually
influenced the English Baptists.
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And so this early
Lutheran thought is kept alive
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even though
Calvin and Luther himself
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move away from it,
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and Luther says the prince
now needs to teach religion.
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And, of course,
Calvin sets up Geneva
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so that the magistrates
and the elders work together.
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And he ends up even supporting
the execution of a heretic
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who doesn't
believe in the Trinity,
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Michael Servetus in 1540s.
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Yeah, we have
article on this at Liberty.
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You had an article on that.
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The question I
have for you though is,
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we've talked about the
priesthood of believers,
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and the
importance of the individual,
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and how that helps
church and state separate
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and religious freedom grow.
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What do these
teachings about Sola scriptura
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and the priesthood of believers,
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how are they relevant today?
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Are we still
seeing their importance?
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Are they being
called into question?
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What do you think?
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I would say in an era
where Biblical literacy
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is historically low,
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Sola scriptura
would be a good way to go.
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When we have not
only the Pope of Rome
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unchanged in his
attitude of leadership
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from the time of Luther,
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but we have
other religious leaders
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even within Protestantism
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saying things that are
not biblically supported.
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So I think we could create
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our own sort of reformation
again in these times.
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People went back to God's word,
and read it, and understood it,
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and lived it of course.
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Well, and I think
that's a very good point.
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And it's taking...
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You're making that
point in the context of
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this 500th
anniversary of the Reformation
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is being used as a
moment by many groups
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to seek, to bring greater unity
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between Catholics and
Protestants, am I right?
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Yeah. Lutheran Church itself...
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And it's unity of forgetfulness.
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Well...
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As the Lutherans themselves
deciding that a few years ago
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that it was just
a misunderstanding
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between the
papacy and Martin Luther,
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not a misunderstanding,
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they both knew very
well what was at stake.
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And as I understand,
00:09:26.93\00:09:28.26
one of the worldwide Lutheran
federations has now said,
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"There is no
teaching or doctrine
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that should keep the Catholic
and the Lutheran churches
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apart any longer."
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Is that right?
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Yeah, once they gave
away righteousness by faith
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which was tied to
Sola scriptura, of course.
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But then I have
to ask the question.
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If the priesthood of believers
was so central and important
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flowing from the Sola
scriptura as redefining society,
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has the Catholic
Church really come to accept
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the priesthood of all believers?
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Has it set down
questions of table authority?
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No, obviously not.
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We have to give
some little credit,
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Vatican II
breathed some fresh air
00:10:00.93\00:10:04.23
into the Catholic
presentation of its doctrines.
00:10:04.27\00:10:08.57
Even if at root, many
of them didn't change.
00:10:08.60\00:10:10.84
And there's an openness
00:10:10.87\00:10:12.21
that Martin Luther
never found in his day.
00:10:12.24\00:10:14.74
But basics remain
00:10:14.78\00:10:17.35
and the role of the pope
00:10:17.38\00:10:18.71
certainly is an
impediment should be today
00:10:18.75\00:10:21.48
as it still is with
Eastern Orthodox Church.
00:10:21.52\00:10:23.59
In fact, I would suggest to you
00:10:23.62\00:10:24.95
that for there to be
a real coming together,
00:10:24.99\00:10:27.46
the pope would actually
need to change his name.
00:10:27.49\00:10:29.89
Because in Latin, pope
actually means papa, doesn't it?
00:10:29.92\00:10:33.90
Yeah.
00:10:33.93\00:10:35.26
And there's this
notion of the paternal figure.
00:10:35.30\00:10:36.80
And Bible says,
call no man father...
00:10:36.83\00:10:38.20
No man father
overseeing scriptural truth.
00:10:38.23\00:10:41.80
And that has not changed,
00:10:41.84\00:10:43.17
and therefore the
Protestant Reformation
00:10:43.20\00:10:44.84
is still very much applied.
00:10:44.87\00:10:46.21
No, I think it's easily shown.
00:10:46.24\00:10:47.58
If you go to the root issues
00:10:47.61\00:10:48.94
that replay in
Martin Luther's time,
00:10:48.98\00:10:50.75
they still apply.
00:10:50.78\00:10:52.88
It's just that religion is
not so important for most people
00:10:52.91\00:10:56.22
and the stakes
don't appear so high
00:10:56.25\00:10:57.89
but they're still there.
00:10:57.92\00:10:59.32
And that's why history matters.
00:10:59.35\00:11:01.79
We need to keep in mind
the truths of sola scriptura,
00:11:01.82\00:11:05.19
the priesthood of believers
00:11:05.23\00:11:06.86
to truly keep alive religious
freedom in our country.
00:11:06.90\00:11:11.17
For many people the
image of Martin Luther's
00:11:11.20\00:11:14.80
groundbreaking reformation
initiative 500 years ago
00:11:14.84\00:11:19.61
was him nailing those 95 thesis
00:11:19.64\00:11:21.84
to the door of
Wittenberg Church.
00:11:21.88\00:11:23.98
For me, the image
that sticks with me
00:11:24.01\00:11:27.08
is Martin Luther,
00:11:27.12\00:11:28.58
that same priest turn
religious revolutionary,
00:11:28.62\00:11:32.55
burning the pope's bull
condemning his doctrines,
00:11:32.59\00:11:35.96
burning it in a
public ceremony of rebellion
00:11:35.99\00:11:39.93
against the then religious
and political authorities.
00:11:39.96\00:11:43.50
That is the
antecedent to what we have today
00:11:43.53\00:11:47.37
in the weaken
Protestant Reformation.
00:11:47.40\00:11:50.27
It was revolutionary.
00:11:50.31\00:11:52.87
With Martin Luther,
00:11:52.91\00:11:54.24
it did divert to
the peasants' rebellion.
00:11:54.28\00:11:56.54
And at different times,
00:11:56.58\00:11:57.91
violence has derived
from religious conflict,
00:11:57.95\00:12:00.95
but at root it is the
elevation of the individual,
00:12:00.98\00:12:04.72
his right before God
00:12:04.75\00:12:06.15
and His power as
a free will agent
00:12:06.19\00:12:09.29
that has changed
the modern world.
00:12:09.32\00:12:13.06
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:13.09\00:12:15.73