Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nick Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000365A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty insider.
00:28 This is the program bringing you news, views, 00:30 discussion, information, 00:32 and analysis of religious liberty events 00:34 in the US and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:40 And my guest is Nicolas Miller, professor, attorney. 00:45 What title do you want? 00:47 Well, it's good to be with you, Lincoln. 00:48 I'm professor of church history at Andrews University 00:51 where I also direct 00:53 the International Religious Liberty Institute. 00:54 Okay, and do we wanna kept to the chase, author? 00:57 Well, author, a recent book coming out in the next week 01:02 called "500 Years of Protest and Liberty". 01:05 Next week as we do this program, 01:07 but it'll be out shortly. 01:08 Yes, it should be out when this program airs 01:11 from Martin Luther to modern civil rights. 01:13 And people can get a copy at Liberty500.com, 01:19 Liberty500.com. 01:20 And as the title suggest, 01:22 we're looking at the five centuries 01:24 since Martin Luther posted his 95 thesis 01:27 and the development of religious freedom 01:29 and civil rights in the west 01:31 up until the modern day. 01:32 And it really goes from Martin Luther 01:34 to, we end by talking about the recent political revolution 01:38 and Donald Trump 01:39 and how these events might be connected. 01:42 For these series of programs, 01:44 we're going to take each century, 01:46 starting with the 16th century 01:48 and talk about the state of religious freedoms... 01:52 It sounds the idiots got the history. 01:54 The dummies guy did... 01:56 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. 01:57 Well, there will be titles like that 01:58 but a century in 20, 30 minutes, 02:01 that's pretty ambitious, isn't it? 02:02 But we can do it. 02:04 Well, I think we can. 02:05 But now, this is a very significant book 02:08 and Liberty Magazine has been long for the ride with you 02:11 as you've written this 02:13 because a number of the elements 02:15 have been used as articles in Liberty Magazine. 02:17 That's right. 02:18 And before it is written 02:20 by the very well-known religious liberty thinker 02:22 and intellectual Lincoln Steed 02:24 who very graciously authored that 02:27 and for those that buy one on Liberty500.com, 02:33 we also give people a free subscription for a year 02:36 to Liberty magazine, 02:37 so it's a special bonus. 02:38 Yeah, very appropriate. All right. 02:40 No, but, you know, I'm trying to keep it lighthearted, 02:41 but there's no question 02:43 that when you talk about religious liberty, 02:46 I don't think it has much meaning 02:48 other than sort of a civil construct 02:50 unless you'd go back to the reformation. 02:52 And when you talk about religion, 02:55 religious liberty is not always been an operative principle 02:57 and liberty as we know, 02:59 it only came out of the reformation. 03:01 It was a shift point, wasn't it? 03:03 So not all, in our secular age, 03:06 people like to say 03:08 that religion is important to religious freedom, 03:11 a religious view is important to religious freedom. 03:13 And there's some truth to that. 03:15 But not all religions 03:16 are supportive of religious freedom. 03:18 There was 1,500 years of Christendom 03:20 before the Protestant Reformation, 03:22 or at least 1,200, 03:23 that was quite antithetical to religious freedom. 03:26 No, well, at what point did they have it? 03:29 You know, the apostolic year, 03:32 there was freedom to believe or to leave. 03:34 Right, As Paul says, 03:36 you know, this preacher is joined 03:39 with these devils, let him go. 03:41 They didn't force but it was the parting of the ways, 03:43 but once the religion organize, 03:45 certainly by the time Constantine took over 03:48 which was in about 250,300 years after Christ. 03:52 Yeah, about 300 A.D. Yeah. 03:55 By that point, the fix was in. 03:57 And there was really nothing that we would recognize 03:59 as religious freedom until the Reformation. 04:01 Well, you raised a very good point. 04:03 To go back to the beginning, 04:04 in a sense, religion and Christianity 04:07 has always been intolerant at some point. 04:10 The Apostle Paul said, here's beliefs about Christ, 04:14 about His cross. 04:15 And if anyone teaches anything else, 04:18 let him be accursed. 04:19 But they were not civilly intolerant. 04:21 In other words, you could not fellowship with them 04:24 but that's all they would have done. 04:27 They wouldn't have been coercive in a civil sense. 04:29 That's why I mentioned Constantine 04:31 because they didn't have political path or constitute. 04:33 You can't deal with the civil freedom 04:36 or lack of unless you have political path. 04:38 That's right. 04:39 But I don't think it's just from a pragmatic lack 04:41 of the ability to persecute. 04:43 Because Christ had some very clear teachings, 04:45 didn't He about not taking up the sword on behalf 04:48 defense of the kingdom and of truth. 04:50 and in I have a contrary. 04:51 He also said, I think, I've come to bring peace, 04:53 I've come to bring a sword. 04:54 Well, and in the context of that, 04:56 Yeah, I know. of course, Lincoln... 04:58 But he was very plain talking to Pilate. 05:00 He made it very plain 05:02 that His kingdom was another type 05:03 than the civil path. 05:05 That's right. 05:06 And so, where Christianity... 05:08 you know, what is the difference, 05:09 I ask my students in my church-state class is this, 05:12 what's the difference between Christianity and Christendom? 05:16 You thought about that? 05:17 You... Well, Christendom is... 05:19 You wanna have a run on it? 05:21 Yeah. 05:22 Christendom is the community of nations 05:27 or of peoples that make up the Christian community. 05:30 Okay. 05:31 Well, I think that's correct but it would go beyond that. 05:35 So Christianity 05:36 are the spiritual teachings of Christ. 05:39 The Sermon on the Mount, The Golden Rule... 05:41 The principles. 05:43 The transformed life, 05:44 Christendom is the formalization 05:49 of Christian influence in a legal... 05:52 Well, not just in a community 05:53 because that's what the church is. 05:55 But Christendom is where we're actually 05:57 putting the force of law... 05:58 Well, I'd use the term that some people may hear lately, 06:01 the caliphate. 06:03 Okay, all right. 06:04 It's the Christian... 06:06 Christian version of the caliphate, 06:07 which at the end of the day is not consistent 06:10 with the teachings of Christianity. 06:12 So, lot of people blame Christianity for lots of ills, 06:16 the crusades, the inquisition, 06:18 for coercion, for violence, for persecution 06:20 but that is Christendom 06:22 which is something that's been influenced by Christianity 06:25 but is not the same as Christianity. 06:26 And, in fact, contradicts 06:29 some of its core principles it teaches. 06:30 I agree with you, and yet it raises the question, 06:32 we're hearing all the time in the war on terror 06:36 that this is not Islam. 06:38 The suicide bombers are not Islam, 06:40 this imam that's calling for the extermination of Israel. 06:44 This is not Islam, not Islam. 06:46 At what point does that ring hello 06:50 because some things done in the name of Christianity, 06:52 you and I know are not consistent 06:54 with the root teachings, 06:55 but if that's the prevailing view 06:57 and the leaders are pushing 06:58 that, that sort of becomes tumultuous. 07:00 You know, this is, you raised a very good question. 07:03 I think a lot of Christians should be a lot more empathetic 07:07 with Muslims than they tend to be. 07:10 They lump them together 07:11 as opponents of Christianity often do. 07:14 And say, look there's Christendom, 07:16 that is Christianity. 07:18 And it's important, I think that we be allowed 07:22 that we can point out groups in Christian history 07:25 that opposed this kind of extremism, right? 07:27 Yeah. 07:28 The Waldenses, the reformers even before the Waldenses, 07:31 they were individuals that kept the faith alive 07:34 in the Piedmont Valleys. 07:36 And they didn't participate in Christendom 07:38 in the same kind of light. 07:40 Yeah, in this aggressive, 07:41 really non-biblical form of Christianity. 07:45 It's time for me to say my statement that I liked it 07:48 but I think it's appropriate here. 07:50 I've said many times including an article 07:52 that we have in upcoming issue of liberty 07:54 on our radio program. 07:56 The coordinator of it liked... 07:59 was very taken when I said this. 08:01 I said there's too much religion in the world today, 08:04 not enough spirituality. 08:06 You're really making the same distinction, aren't you? 08:08 I think so, although, 08:10 you know, in our 20th, 21st century modern age, 08:14 that's a very popular thing for many people to say. 08:16 You won't find, even really many secular people. 08:19 Hollywood stars don't tend to be atheists or agnostics. 08:23 They believe in spirituality, right? 08:25 I'm gonna be in touch with my spiritual side 08:28 in the higher power. 08:29 But the reality is spirituality doesn't become incarnate 08:35 in a meaningful way in human society 08:37 unless it puts on flesh 08:39 and at some point, institutions, right. 08:41 Christ became incarnate in flesh. 08:44 Spirituality becomes communal 08:47 in the form of some kind of institution. 08:49 Oh, absolutely. 08:50 We know that the problems that the people easily point to 08:55 in all religion, particularly Christianity. 08:58 Problems of organization usually and power, 09:01 people moving with the freedom 09:06 that they've gained by saying they're Christian or whatever, 09:08 but spirituality is the antithesis 09:11 of that sort of behavior 09:12 and it's the protection against it. 09:14 So we've been sort of 09:17 covering a first 1,500 years of Christianity 09:19 shall we say. 09:21 I was about to pull you back to... 09:22 Till the 16th century. What do you wanna start with? 09:24 Well, no. 09:25 This is very important background 09:27 because what happens is the Christian community 09:29 begins to define, Christiandom 09:32 begins to define Christianity in most people's minds. 09:35 And Christianity becomes the hierarchical relationships 09:39 from pope to cardinals, priests, 09:42 and then the lay people. 09:44 And it echoes, the civil society's king, 09:48 aristocracy, and the king is the state. 09:51 And in many ways people view the pope is the church, 09:54 right, he is the one that sets down 09:56 and we have a very stratified hierarchical society. 10:00 And what happens in the 16th century 10:03 with Martin Luther, 10:06 people will get to, 10:07 "Yeah, Martin Luther supported some persecution 10:09 and he wasn't a perfect church state separationist," 10:12 and all this is true 10:13 but he laid the seeds in the foundation 10:16 for a fundamental shift in this view of the world. 10:20 You're right. I agree with you. 10:22 And in the upcoming issue of Liberty, we're... 10:26 Well, two upcoming issues I've run 10:28 excerpts from his own writings 10:30 and then another article is an analysis of that 10:32 on his idea of the two kingdoms. 10:34 So I do think he, very consciously, 10:37 even though he didn't always followed his own advice 10:40 described these very discreet areas of responsibility, 10:44 the state civil society and the spiritual realm. 10:47 And this was based in some ways on an early principle 10:50 he discovered called sola scriptura 10:53 that spiritual authority came from the scriptures, 10:56 and that the pope and the church itself 10:58 was subject to analysis and critique of the Bible. 11:02 And this is what allows him 11:03 to discover justification by faith 11:05 and the important truths of the Protestant Reformation. 11:09 But it leads on to something else 11:11 which is, you can say 11:12 which is the most important doctrine of the Reformation, 11:15 and some people say, you know, sola fide, 11:18 sola christus, these are all very good. 11:21 But if there was one 11:22 that I said had the biggest impact on society, 11:25 it will be one that flowed from these things. 11:27 If you're going to study scripture, 11:28 then each member of the church 11:30 must study scripture for themselves 11:32 and have their own personal faith. 11:33 In fact, it was revolutionary in Martin Luther's time. 11:35 And even now the Roman Catholic Church is uncomfortable 11:38 with that culture. 11:39 Well, this doctrinal concept 11:40 became known as the priesthood of all believers, right? 11:43 The priesthood of all believers, 11:45 sometimes we think in terms of not praying through a priest 11:49 or confessing our sin, 11:50 praying directly to God and that certainly part of it. 11:52 But another part of it is the right 11:54 and duty of every Christian 11:55 to study and interpret 11:57 and apply the Bible for themselves, 12:00 the right of private judgment 12:02 in matters of scriptural interpretation. 12:04 Now, it's obvious 12:05 since we talked about time points in history, 12:07 but since printing was only a little earlier developed 12:13 and broader education 12:14 with the change of the social classes, 12:17 this studying the Bible for yourself 12:18 would have been nonsensical back 12:20 at the preliterate age, wouldn't it? 12:22 So it was all coming together with Martin Luther, 12:25 him making that determination 12:27 and the ability of at least a few 12:30 more than usual people who could read and study. 12:31 Well, we're talking about the 16th century, 12:33 two important elements start then, 12:36 printing is invented about half a century before 12:39 in the 1450s. 12:41 And there are some school systems 12:42 but the rise of Protestantism and Lutheranism 12:45 causes printing and schools 12:48 to take off and spread 12:50 precisely because this teaching 12:52 that there needs to be widespread literacy 12:55 for people to have Bible study and faith. 12:58 Now, I picked up a figure recently. 13:00 I think I read that there were five million books, 13:03 mostly Bibles in circulation of the time of Martin Luther's. 13:07 Well, five million is quite a high number. 13:09 I know. 13:12 It is printing... That's the number I read. 13:14 Printing existed before Luther, 13:15 but when Luther started writing, 13:18 one priest at the time said 13:20 it started snowing pamphlets of Martin Luther. 13:23 Something like 60% of all documents 13:26 in circulation at one point where either Luther's writings 13:29 or responses to Luther's writings. 13:32 Since like we're getting into some heavy stuff, 13:34 but let's take a break and we'll be right back 13:36 to continue this trip back in time 13:40 so that we can bring ourselves correctly to the present 13:43 and the state of religion and religious freedom. |
Revised 2017-07-06