Welcome to the Liberty insider.
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This is the program
bringing you news, views,
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discussion, information,
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and analysis of
religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest is Nicolas
Miller, professor, attorney.
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What title do you want?
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Well, it's good to
be with you, Lincoln.
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I'm professor of church
history at Andrews University
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where I also direct
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the International
Religious Liberty Institute.
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Okay, and do we wanna
kept to the chase, author?
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Well, author, a recent
book coming out in the next week
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called "500 Years of
Protest and Liberty".
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Next week as we do this program,
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but it'll be out shortly.
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Yes, it should be out
when this program airs
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from Martin Luther
to modern civil rights.
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And people can get a
copy at Liberty500.com,
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Liberty500.com.
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And as the title suggest,
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we're looking at
the five centuries
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since Martin Luther
posted his 95 thesis
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and the development
of religious freedom
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and civil rights in the west
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up until the modern day.
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And it really
goes from Martin Luther
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to, we end by talking about
the recent political revolution
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and Donald Trump
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and how these
events might be connected.
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For these series of programs,
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we're going to
take each century,
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starting with the 16th century
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and talk about the
state of religious freedoms...
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It sounds the
idiots got the history.
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The dummies guy did...
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Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right.
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Well, there will
be titles like that
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but a century in 20, 30 minutes,
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that's pretty
ambitious, isn't it?
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But we can do it.
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Well, I think we can.
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But now, this is a
very significant book
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and Liberty Magazine has
been long for the ride with you
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as you've written this
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because a number of the elements
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have been used as
articles in Liberty Magazine.
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That's right.
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And before it is written
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by the very well-known
religious liberty thinker
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and intellectual Lincoln Steed
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who very
graciously authored that
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and for those that
buy one on Liberty500.com,
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we also give people a
free subscription for a year
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to Liberty magazine,
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so it's a special bonus.
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Yeah, very
appropriate. All right.
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No, but, you know, I'm
trying to keep it lighthearted,
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but there's no question
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that when you talk
about religious liberty,
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I don't think
it has much meaning
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other than sort
of a civil construct
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unless you'd go
back to the reformation.
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And when you
talk about religion,
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religious liberty is not always
been an operative principle
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and liberty as we know,
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it only came out
of the reformation.
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It was a shift point, wasn't it?
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So not all, in our secular age,
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people like to say
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that religion is
important to religious freedom,
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a religious view is
important to religious freedom.
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And there's some truth to that.
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But not all religions
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are supportive of
religious freedom.
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There was 1,500
years of Christendom
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before the
Protestant Reformation,
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or at least 1,200,
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that was quite antithetical
to religious freedom.
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No, well, at what
point did they have it?
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You know, the apostolic year,
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there was freedom
to believe or to leave.
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Right, As Paul says,
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you know, this
preacher is joined
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with these devils, let him go.
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They didn't force but it
was the parting of the ways,
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but once the religion organize,
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certainly by the
time Constantine took over
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which was in about
250,300 years after Christ.
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Yeah, about 300 A.D. Yeah.
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By that point, the fix was in.
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And there was really
nothing that we would recognize
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as religious freedom
until the Reformation.
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Well, you raised
a very good point.
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To go back to the beginning,
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in a sense,
religion and Christianity
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has always been
intolerant at some point.
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The Apostle Paul said,
here's beliefs about Christ,
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about His cross.
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And if anyone
teaches anything else,
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let him be accursed.
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But they were not
civilly intolerant.
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In other words, you
could not fellowship with them
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but that's all
they would have done.
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They wouldn't have been
coercive in a civil sense.
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That's why I
mentioned Constantine
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because they didn't have
political path or constitute.
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You can't deal
with the civil freedom
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or lack of unless
you have political path.
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That's right.
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But I don't think it's
just from a pragmatic lack
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of the ability to persecute.
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Because Christ had
some very clear teachings,
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didn't He about not
taking up the sword on behalf
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defense of the
kingdom and of truth.
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and in I have a contrary.
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He also said, I think,
I've come to bring peace,
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I've come to bring a sword.
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Well, and in
the context of that,
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Yeah, I know. of
course, Lincoln...
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But he was very
plain talking to Pilate.
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He made it very plain
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that His
kingdom was another type
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than the civil path.
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That's right.
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And so, where Christianity...
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you know, what
is the difference,
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I ask my students in my
church-state class is this,
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what's the difference between
Christianity and Christendom?
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You thought about that?
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You... Well, Christendom is...
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You wanna have a run on it?
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Yeah.
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Christendom is the
community of nations
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or of peoples that make
up the Christian community.
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Okay.
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Well, I think that's correct
but it would go beyond that.
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So Christianity
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are the spiritual
teachings of Christ.
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The Sermon on the
Mount, The Golden Rule...
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The principles.
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The transformed life,
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Christendom is the formalization
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of Christian
influence in a legal...
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Well, not just in a community
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because that's
what the church is.
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But Christendom is
where we're actually
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putting the force of law...
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Well, I'd use the term that
some people may hear lately,
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the caliphate.
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Okay, all right.
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It's the Christian...
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Christian
version of the caliphate,
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which at the end of
the day is not consistent
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with the
teachings of Christianity.
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So, lot of people blame
Christianity for lots of ills,
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the crusades, the inquisition,
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for coercion, for
violence, for persecution
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but that is Christendom
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which is something that's
been influenced by Christianity
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but is not the
same as Christianity.
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And, in fact, contradicts
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some of its core
principles it teaches.
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I agree with you, and
yet it raises the question,
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we're hearing all the
time in the war on terror
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that this is not Islam.
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The suicide
bombers are not Islam,
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this imam that's calling
for the extermination of Israel.
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This is not Islam, not Islam.
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At what point
does that ring hello
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because some things done
in the name of Christianity,
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you and I know
are not consistent
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with the root teachings,
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but if that's
the prevailing view
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and the leaders are pushing
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that, that sort of
becomes tumultuous.
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You know, this is, you
raised a very good question.
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I think a lot of Christians
should be a lot more empathetic
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with Muslims
than they tend to be.
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They lump them together
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as opponents of
Christianity often do.
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And say, look
there's Christendom,
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that is Christianity.
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And it's important, I
think that we be allowed
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that we can point out
groups in Christian history
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that opposed this
kind of extremism, right?
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Yeah.
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The Waldenses, the reformers
even before the Waldenses,
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they were individuals
that kept the faith alive
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in the Piedmont Valleys.
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And they didn't
participate in Christendom
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in the same kind of light.
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Yeah, in this aggressive,
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really non-biblical
form of Christianity.
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It's time for me to say
my statement that I liked it
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but I think it's
appropriate here.
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I've said many
times including an article
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that we have in
upcoming issue of liberty
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on our radio program.
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The coordinator of it liked...
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was very taken when I said this.
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I said there's too much
religion in the world today,
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not enough spirituality.
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You're really making the
same distinction, aren't you?
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I think so, although,
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you know, in our 20th,
21st century modern age,
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that's a very popular
thing for many people to say.
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You won't find, even
really many secular people.
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Hollywood stars don't tend
to be atheists or agnostics.
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They believe in
spirituality, right?
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I'm gonna be in touch
with my spiritual side
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in the higher power.
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But the reality is spirituality
doesn't become incarnate
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in a meaningful
way in human society
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unless it puts on flesh
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and at some point,
institutions, right.
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Christ became
incarnate in flesh.
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Spirituality becomes communal
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in the form of some
kind of institution.
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Oh, absolutely.
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We know that the problems
that the people easily point to
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in all religion,
particularly Christianity.
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Problems of
organization usually and power,
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people moving with the freedom
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that they've gained by saying
they're Christian or whatever,
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but spirituality
is the antithesis
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of that sort of behavior
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and it's the
protection against it.
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So we've been sort of
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covering a first
1,500 years of Christianity
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shall we say.
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I was about to
pull you back to...
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Till the 16th century.
What do you wanna start with?
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Well, no.
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This is very
important background
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because what happens
is the Christian community
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begins to define, Christiandom
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begins to define Christianity
in most people's minds.
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And Christianity becomes
the hierarchical relationships
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from pope to cardinals, priests,
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and then the lay people.
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And it echoes, the
civil society's king,
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aristocracy, and
the king is the state.
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And in many ways people
view the pope is the church,
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right, he is the
one that sets down
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and we have a very
stratified hierarchical society.
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And what happens
in the 16th century
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with Martin Luther,
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people will get to,
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"Yeah, Martin Luther
supported some persecution
00:10:07.47\00:10:09.90
and he wasn't a perfect
church state separationist,"
00:10:09.94\00:10:12.17
and all this is true
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but he laid the
seeds in the foundation
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for a fundamental shift
in this view of the world.
00:10:16.11\00:10:20.72
You're right. I agree with you.
00:10:20.75\00:10:22.08
And in the upcoming
issue of Liberty, we're...
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Well, two
upcoming issues I've run
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excerpts from his own writings
00:10:28.39\00:10:30.09
and then another
article is an analysis of that
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on his idea of the two kingdoms.
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So I do think
he, very consciously,
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even though he didn't
always followed his own advice
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described these very discreet
areas of responsibility,
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the state civil society
and the spiritual realm.
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And this was based in
some ways on an early principle
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he discovered
called sola scriptura
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that spiritual authority
came from the scriptures,
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and that the pope
and the church itself
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was subject to analysis
and critique of the Bible.
00:10:58.59\00:11:02.52
And this is what allows him
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to discover
justification by faith
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and the important truths
of the Protestant Reformation.
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But it leads on
to something else
00:11:09.33\00:11:11.37
which is, you can say
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which is the most important
doctrine of the Reformation,
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and some people
say, you know, sola fide,
00:11:15.64\00:11:18.54
sola christus,
these are all very good.
00:11:18.57\00:11:21.04
But if there was one
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that I said had the
biggest impact on society,
00:11:22.44\00:11:25.08
it will be one that
flowed from these things.
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If you're going
to study scripture,
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then each member of the church
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must study
scripture for themselves
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and have their
own personal faith.
00:11:32.52\00:11:33.86
In fact, it was revolutionary
in Martin Luther's time.
00:11:33.89\00:11:35.52
And even now the Roman
Catholic Church is uncomfortable
00:11:35.56\00:11:38.13
with that culture.
00:11:38.16\00:11:39.49
Well, this doctrinal concept
00:11:39.53\00:11:40.86
became known as the priesthood
of all believers, right?
00:11:40.90\00:11:43.87
The priesthood of all believers,
00:11:43.90\00:11:45.23
sometimes we think in terms
of not praying through a priest
00:11:45.27\00:11:48.97
or confessing our sin,
00:11:49.00\00:11:50.34
praying directly to God
and that certainly part of it.
00:11:50.37\00:11:52.64
But another part
of it is the right
00:11:52.67\00:11:54.28
and duty of every Christian
00:11:54.31\00:11:55.84
to study and interpret
00:11:55.88\00:11:57.58
and apply the
Bible for themselves,
00:11:57.61\00:12:00.02
the right of private judgment
00:12:00.05\00:12:02.22
in matters of
scriptural interpretation.
00:12:02.25\00:12:04.09
Now, it's obvious
00:12:04.12\00:12:05.45
since we talked about
time points in history,
00:12:05.49\00:12:07.96
but since printing was
only a little earlier developed
00:12:07.99\00:12:13.09
and broader education
00:12:13.13\00:12:14.60
with the change of
the social classes,
00:12:14.63\00:12:17.27
this studying the
Bible for yourself
00:12:17.30\00:12:18.93
would have been nonsensical back
00:12:18.97\00:12:20.77
at the
preliterate age, wouldn't it?
00:12:20.80\00:12:22.50
So it was all coming
together with Martin Luther,
00:12:22.54\00:12:25.17
him making that determination
00:12:25.21\00:12:27.41
and the ability
of at least a few
00:12:27.44\00:12:30.21
more than usual people
who could read and study.
00:12:30.25\00:12:31.95
Well, we're talking
about the 16th century,
00:12:31.98\00:12:33.88
two important
elements start then,
00:12:33.92\00:12:36.79
printing is invented
about half a century before
00:12:36.82\00:12:39.52
in the 1450s.
00:12:39.55\00:12:41.32
And there are
some school systems
00:12:41.36\00:12:42.69
but the rise of
Protestantism and Lutheranism
00:12:42.72\00:12:45.69
causes printing and schools
00:12:45.73\00:12:48.76
to take off and spread
00:12:48.80\00:12:50.27
precisely because this teaching
00:12:50.30\00:12:52.13
that there needs to
be widespread literacy
00:12:52.17\00:12:55.34
for people to have
Bible study and faith.
00:12:55.37\00:12:58.27
Now, I picked up
a figure recently.
00:12:58.31\00:13:00.11
I think I read that
there were five million books,
00:13:00.14\00:13:03.48
mostly Bibles in circulation
of the time of Martin Luther's.
00:13:03.51\00:13:07.88
Well, five million
is quite a high number.
00:13:07.92\00:13:09.82
I know.
00:13:09.85\00:13:12.02
It is printing...
That's the number I read.
00:13:12.05\00:13:14.22
Printing existed before Luther,
00:13:14.26\00:13:15.89
but when Luther started writing,
00:13:15.92\00:13:18.49
one priest at the time said
00:13:18.53\00:13:20.76
it started snowing
pamphlets of Martin Luther.
00:13:20.80\00:13:23.77
Something like
60% of all documents
00:13:23.80\00:13:26.07
in circulation at one point
where either Luther's writings
00:13:26.10\00:13:29.50
or responses to
Luther's writings.
00:13:29.54\00:13:32.14
Since like we're
getting into some heavy stuff,
00:13:32.17\00:13:34.31
but let's take a break
and we'll be right back
00:13:34.34\00:13:36.51
to continue this
trip back in time
00:13:36.54\00:13:40.12
so that we can bring ourselves
correctly to the present
00:13:40.15\00:13:43.18
and the state of
religion and religious freedom.
00:13:43.22\00:13:45.09