Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:26.96\00:00:28.79
This is a program
bringing news, views,
00:00:28.82\00:00:30.96
discussion, arguments
00:00:30.99\00:00:32.93
from a religious
liberty perspective,
00:00:32.96\00:00:35.06
analyzing what's
happening in the U.S.
00:00:35.10\00:00:36.90
and around the world.
00:00:36.93\00:00:38.27
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine,
00:00:38.30\00:00:41.24
and my guest on this
program is Greg Hamilton,
00:00:41.27\00:00:44.67
president of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
00:00:44.71\00:00:47.84
Good to be with you.
00:00:47.88\00:00:49.64
You and I have discussed
where we're going to take this,
00:00:49.68\00:00:52.28
but I'll start with an
example you may not know
00:00:52.31\00:00:55.05
that I'm really
setting it up for.
00:00:55.08\00:00:56.69
I remember after
9/11, reading in an article
00:00:56.72\00:01:00.56
that quoted Le
Monde magazine in France,
00:01:00.59\00:01:03.66
where someone was
analyzing what had happened,
00:01:03.69\00:01:05.59
and they said
that this terror event
00:01:05.63\00:01:08.96
had created a situation...
00:01:09.00\00:01:11.33
Which terror event?
00:01:11.37\00:01:12.70
9/11. Oh, 9/11.
00:01:12.73\00:01:14.07
Had created...
00:01:14.10\00:01:15.47
I'm summarizing
now, I'm about to say...
00:01:15.50\00:01:17.07
I thought you're talking about
the events in Paris recently.
00:01:17.11\00:01:19.21
No, this was the 9/11 event,
00:01:19.24\00:01:20.98
had created
events where they said,
00:01:21.01\00:01:23.78
we're in a process
where liberal democracy
00:01:23.81\00:01:26.85
is in the
process of being replaced
00:01:26.88\00:01:29.32
by its global
opposite, a terror of security.
00:01:29.35\00:01:34.46
And it was a
reminder to me how, you know,
00:01:34.49\00:01:38.09
the world can seem so
cut-and-dry, democracy,
00:01:38.13\00:01:42.50
despotism, and yet events
and the dynamic of history
00:01:42.53\00:01:46.60
can almost swap them.
00:01:46.63\00:01:48.30
Yes.
00:01:48.34\00:01:49.67
And we've seen that
in the United States
00:01:49.70\00:01:51.34
on political parties.
00:01:51.37\00:01:52.71
Most people don't realize
00:01:52.74\00:01:54.78
the general
alignment of the parties,
00:01:54.81\00:01:56.91
and they're
almost the polar opposite
00:01:56.95\00:01:58.51
of what they were certainly
as recently as the Civil War.
00:01:58.55\00:02:02.38
Well, after
Constitutional founding
00:02:02.42\00:02:03.75
you've essentially
had the Federalists.
00:02:03.79\00:02:05.25
Well, there were
no parties originally.
00:02:05.29\00:02:06.92
Well,
originally, that's correct...
00:02:06.96\00:02:08.79
They were factions.
00:02:08.82\00:02:10.16
But they were
emerging at the time
00:02:10.19\00:02:11.53
and they were led
by Alexander Hamilton
00:02:11.56\00:02:13.29
and the
federalists and John Adams,
00:02:13.33\00:02:15.20
of course, the federalist,
and George Washington,
00:02:15.23\00:02:17.60
who was a federalist,
00:02:17.63\00:02:18.97
and then there
was Thomas Jefferson
00:02:19.00\00:02:20.37
and James Madison
00:02:20.40\00:02:21.74
who were known
as the "Republicans"
00:02:21.77\00:02:23.14
which is today's modern
day Democratic Party, okay,
00:02:23.17\00:02:27.21
which is fascinating
because with the failure
00:02:27.24\00:02:30.28
of the Federalist Party
00:02:30.31\00:02:31.65
emerged what was
known as the Whig Party,
00:02:31.68\00:02:34.48
Whig Party was
more about logic...
00:02:34.52\00:02:35.85
Now, the Whig, it
goes from England.
00:02:35.88\00:02:37.22
From England.
00:02:37.25\00:02:38.59
They were more of a
law set ferrotype party
00:02:38.62\00:02:40.99
that liked their
government but...
00:02:41.02\00:02:43.09
They were the
Whigs and the Tories.
00:02:43.12\00:02:44.46
They liked a little
bit of limited government
00:02:44.49\00:02:48.16
so they were a grand mix,
00:02:48.20\00:02:51.67
and so they took in
00:02:51.70\00:02:53.23
the most amount of
people as possible,
00:02:53.27\00:02:55.24
in other words they were gadfly,
00:02:55.27\00:02:56.67
they were
popular with everybody.
00:02:56.71\00:02:58.37
They would say yes to
everybody and yet, you know,
00:02:58.41\00:03:00.84
basically be
completely speak out of one side
00:03:00.88\00:03:04.68
of the mouth
and then do another.
00:03:04.71\00:03:06.05
And so that was its problem.
00:03:06.08\00:03:08.05
So the Whig Party met its death
00:03:08.08\00:03:10.19
with the rise
of Abraham Lincoln,
00:03:10.22\00:03:13.46
before the Civil War.
00:03:13.49\00:03:14.82
What's
interesting about that is...
00:03:14.86\00:03:16.36
His rise
precipitated the Civil War.
00:03:16.39\00:03:18.73
Well, but the Whig
party was very much involved,
00:03:18.76\00:03:23.00
aligned not
basically philosophically
00:03:23.03\00:03:26.77
with the south
and with James Polk
00:03:26.80\00:03:29.80
who was the
president at the time,
00:03:29.84\00:03:31.17
who was a protege
of Andrew Jackson,
00:03:31.21\00:03:32.91
but James Polk put forward
00:03:32.94\00:03:34.51
this doctrine of
Manifest Destiny,
00:03:34.54\00:03:36.18
this idea that we need
to fight a war with Mexico
00:03:36.21\00:03:39.21
in order to gain more territory
00:03:39.25\00:03:40.82
in order to advance
the more slave territory...
00:03:40.85\00:03:44.82
Why didn't he just
build the wall with Mexico?
00:03:44.85\00:03:47.12
Yeah.
00:03:47.16\00:03:48.79
Yes, yes very fascinating,
very fascinating question
00:03:48.82\00:03:52.19
but Ulysses S Grant
who was a colonel at a time
00:03:52.23\00:03:57.03
called it a wicked
war and Abraham Lincoln,
00:03:57.07\00:03:59.63
who only served two
years as a representative
00:03:59.67\00:04:02.20
in Congress from
Illinois, from Springfield,
00:04:02.24\00:04:06.44
he went there and
he denounced James Polk
00:04:06.47\00:04:10.85
as an evil wicked
president and that made news,
00:04:10.88\00:04:15.08
national news in newspapers
all across the country
00:04:15.12\00:04:17.25
and that's what got him a name
00:04:17.29\00:04:19.09
to eventually run for president,
00:04:19.12\00:04:20.46
but in the
meantime because of that,
00:04:20.49\00:04:21.82
back home in
Illinois, he lost for reelection
00:04:21.86\00:04:24.86
so he only served two years
00:04:24.89\00:04:27.33
before he would
become President.
00:04:27.36\00:04:29.46
Now, what would
emerge from the Whig Party
00:04:29.50\00:04:34.90
was the death of
the Whig Party from that
00:04:34.94\00:04:36.37
because the Whig Party
went ahead and jumped all,
00:04:36.40\00:04:39.31
with all force jumped
into the Mexican-American War
00:04:39.34\00:04:42.14
along with the South
00:04:42.18\00:04:43.78
and that turned a
lot of people off,
00:04:43.81\00:04:45.48
and Lincoln was able to,
for his clarion call to say,
00:04:45.51\00:04:48.58
"Hey this is wrong, this is evil
00:04:48.62\00:04:50.95
what we did to Mexico, okay.
00:04:50.99\00:04:53.15
We didn't gain anything from it,
00:04:53.19\00:04:54.89
we pulled back to the...
00:04:54.92\00:05:00.43
What it's called the
Rio Grande so to speak
00:05:00.46\00:05:02.70
where we
basically made our border.
00:05:02.73\00:05:04.93
Yes, we increased our
territory but not by much
00:05:04.97\00:05:07.54
and how many thousands
were killed," all right.
00:05:07.57\00:05:10.31
So it was, it was the
Vietnam of that era so to speak.
00:05:10.34\00:05:13.54
Thank you for bringing this up
00:05:13.58\00:05:14.91
because a little
historical reality
00:05:14.94\00:05:16.71
wouldn't hurt right now when,
00:05:16.75\00:05:18.15
when there seems to
be a national turning
00:05:18.18\00:05:20.02
against immigrants/Mexicans.
00:05:20.05\00:05:22.78
Mexico too.
00:05:22.82\00:05:24.55
And the U.S., just
like it has with slavery
00:05:24.59\00:05:27.62
has a little bit of sins,
00:05:27.66\00:05:30.09
some sins to atone
for indeed with Mexico.
00:05:30.13\00:05:32.49
Yes, absolutely.
00:05:32.53\00:05:34.13
So what happened
with Lincoln is, you know,
00:05:34.16\00:05:37.17
Lincoln embraced the
anti-slavery movement
00:05:37.20\00:05:40.74
which at first he
was kind of upset...
00:05:40.77\00:05:42.67
Yeah, he was slow to the party.
00:05:42.70\00:05:44.57
Because he felt that
the anti-slavery movement
00:05:44.61\00:05:46.98
was so obnoxious
00:05:47.01\00:05:48.54
and they were only
a destabilizing factor
00:05:48.58\00:05:51.45
and they were the
religious right...
00:05:51.48\00:05:52.81
In fact, in reality, he always
until almost to the very end,
00:05:52.85\00:05:57.52
saw it more from a
constitutional states
00:05:57.55\00:06:01.36
or a federalist point of view
00:06:01.39\00:06:02.92
rather than the
issue of slavery itself.
00:06:02.96\00:06:05.06
Yes, yes, absolutely right.
00:06:05.09\00:06:06.49
That's exactly right.
00:06:06.53\00:06:08.40
So the
anti-slavery movement was viewed
00:06:08.43\00:06:12.30
as an obnoxious radical movement
00:06:12.33\00:06:14.84
that represented
the Christian right
00:06:14.87\00:06:16.81
of Lincoln's day
and Lincoln decided,
00:06:16.84\00:06:20.34
you know, they're right,
00:06:20.38\00:06:22.04
we've got to
co-opt their movement
00:06:22.08\00:06:24.35
because it is a just cause
00:06:24.38\00:06:25.88
and he saw it as a motivator
for the soldiers of the North
00:06:25.91\00:06:30.45
with his
Emancipation Proclamation Act,
00:06:30.49\00:06:33.22
to give them
motivation to win this war
00:06:33.25\00:06:36.32
that we have to win this war.
00:06:36.36\00:06:37.89
So...
00:06:37.93\00:06:39.26
But remember the emancipation
00:06:39.29\00:06:40.63
was only for
slaves in the south.
00:06:40.66\00:06:43.06
Yes, I understand that.
00:06:43.10\00:06:44.43
So it was to create
dissent within the south,
00:06:44.47\00:06:47.37
wasn't initially
to free northern.
00:06:47.40\00:06:49.77
But when the
final bill passage came
00:06:49.80\00:06:52.14
after his death in 1965...
00:06:52.17\00:06:53.51
It evolved into that
'cause it started something
00:06:53.54\00:06:54.88
that he stopped.
00:06:54.91\00:06:56.24
Right correct, that's correct.
00:06:56.28\00:06:57.71
But my point is that
00:06:57.75\00:07:00.15
when you look at
the moral revolution
00:07:00.18\00:07:02.68
that took place as a
result of the Civil War,
00:07:02.72\00:07:05.32
you have a party that
emerged that was anti-slavery,
00:07:05.35\00:07:10.56
was for reforming
the South and especially
00:07:10.59\00:07:15.53
when it came to
states' rights, this whole idea
00:07:15.56\00:07:17.43
that states are
ultimately sovereign
00:07:17.47\00:07:18.90
over the federal
government, which was forever,
00:07:18.93\00:07:21.47
basically that
argument was forever decided
00:07:21.50\00:07:23.94
supposedly at the Civil War
00:07:23.97\00:07:26.04
with the North
winning and so on.
00:07:26.07\00:07:28.14
So you have the party of Lincoln
00:07:28.18\00:07:30.31
and its values of civil rights.
00:07:30.35\00:07:33.58
Then you get to 1960,
00:07:33.62\00:07:35.98
which is a watershed
moment in political history
00:07:36.02\00:07:39.05
that people
don't often remember.
00:07:39.09\00:07:41.06
You had Richard Nixon
00:07:41.09\00:07:42.82
running against John F. Kennedy.
00:07:42.86\00:07:44.99
What's fascinating
about Richard Nixon is that
00:07:45.03\00:07:48.56
he was a Republican
00:07:48.60\00:07:49.93
who was an absolute
mastermind at propaganda.
00:07:49.96\00:07:52.97
He was a genius, but
he would get paranoid
00:07:53.00\00:07:58.61
and obviously go too far
00:07:58.64\00:07:59.97
with Watergate
and everything else.
00:08:00.01\00:08:01.34
He was always a little paranoid
00:08:01.38\00:08:02.71
because he was the
hitman for McCarthy.
00:08:02.74\00:08:04.15
But he hated the Kennedys,
utterly hated the Kennedys...
00:08:04.18\00:08:07.35
As did Johnson.
00:08:07.38\00:08:08.72
But here's what happened.
00:08:08.75\00:08:10.12
Here's John F. Kennedy,
00:08:10.15\00:08:12.09
a northeastern Irish
Catholic from Massachusetts
00:08:12.12\00:08:17.33
being the Democratic
Party standard bearer.
00:08:17.36\00:08:19.93
Where did most of the
Democratic Party reside?
00:08:19.96\00:08:22.70
It resided in the
Old Dominion South,
00:08:22.73\00:08:25.83
the Confederate
south, the Confederacy,
00:08:25.87\00:08:28.37
all right, which
were made up largely
00:08:28.40\00:08:30.44
of Southern Baptists
and Southern Methodists,
00:08:30.47\00:08:32.31
all right, who for a Catholic
to be their standard bearer
00:08:32.34\00:08:36.04
was anathema to them, okay.
00:08:36.08\00:08:38.58
It was absolute
utter abomination
00:08:38.61\00:08:42.32
to their party to have
a Catholic standard bearer
00:08:42.35\00:08:44.72
for their party,
00:08:44.75\00:08:46.09
but a double whammy with that,
00:08:46.12\00:08:47.89
he embraced the
Civil Rights Movement
00:08:47.92\00:08:51.53
and Martin
Luther King, all right.
00:08:51.56\00:08:53.60
So those two
whammies against him
00:08:53.63\00:08:55.63
those two big black eyes,
00:08:55.66\00:08:57.80
so what did Richard Nixon do?
00:08:57.83\00:08:59.67
He did essentially what
Ronald Reagan did later.
00:08:59.70\00:09:02.44
He basically said to the South,
00:09:02.47\00:09:04.11
"Hey, I would like
to do a little dance
00:09:04.14\00:09:06.71
with the
Christian right down there."
00:09:06.74\00:09:08.08
So he did a little
dance and guess what?
00:09:08.11\00:09:10.25
In 1960 Kennedy barely
won the election with Hawaii
00:09:10.28\00:09:14.12
being the last
state to be counted
00:09:14.15\00:09:16.22
to take Kennedy
over the top, all right.
00:09:16.25\00:09:18.35
That's how close it was,
00:09:18.39\00:09:19.72
it was that close in
terms of the Electoral College.
00:09:19.75\00:09:21.96
But more
specifically what happened was,
00:09:21.99\00:09:24.96
here you have
Kennedy who just barely won,
00:09:24.99\00:09:29.60
you have Nixon doing this
little dance with the South.
00:09:29.63\00:09:33.00
Nixon won almost
the entire South.
00:09:33.03\00:09:36.54
He won nearly the
entire South in that election.
00:09:36.57\00:09:38.91
Here Kennedy, a Democrat,
lost nearly the entire South.
00:09:38.94\00:09:43.45
You don't think that
the big part of the story
00:09:43.48\00:09:46.05
of the shifting parties
00:09:46.08\00:09:48.78
was reconstruction in the South?
00:09:48.82\00:09:50.65
Yes, but...
00:09:50.69\00:09:52.02
That's when the identity shifted
00:09:52.05\00:09:54.82
from one party to the other
00:09:54.86\00:09:56.19
and the Democrats got
their grip on the South.
00:09:56.22\00:10:00.76
Yes, but that's
just going too far back.
00:10:00.80\00:10:02.56
I want to bring
it up to current time
00:10:02.60\00:10:05.03
so that we can understand...
And back to Lincoln...
00:10:05.07\00:10:06.80
I want to understand this shift,
00:10:06.84\00:10:09.10
this fundamental shift.
00:10:09.14\00:10:10.47
There's no question that
when Kennedy was elected,
00:10:10.51\00:10:12.94
that was an incredible watershed
00:10:12.97\00:10:15.08
and for the U.S.
00:10:15.11\00:10:16.78
as a whole to have a
Roman Catholic president.
00:10:16.81\00:10:18.75
Right.
00:10:18.78\00:10:20.12
If I could choose any moment
00:10:20.15\00:10:22.18
when the taken-for-granted
visceral Protestant identity
00:10:22.22\00:10:26.49
of the U.S. clearly
changed, it was then,
00:10:26.52\00:10:30.23
even though he didn't do
00:10:30.26\00:10:32.13
what his church
might have wanted
00:10:32.16\00:10:33.56
and it was stated recently,
the Catholic bishops said,
00:10:33.60\00:10:36.10
"They made a
mistake in not holding him
00:10:36.13\00:10:38.20
to the Church dictates
00:10:38.23\00:10:39.57
and they wouldn't
make that mistake again."
00:10:39.60\00:10:41.47
He turned out
to be no problem...
00:10:41.50\00:10:43.30
Though his speech in Houston,
00:10:43.34\00:10:44.81
while he was
running for presidency.
00:10:44.84\00:10:46.34
We printed that
in Liberty issues.
00:10:46.37\00:10:48.71
Saying that he was for
the constitutional separation
00:10:48.74\00:10:51.41
of church and state,
00:10:51.45\00:10:52.78
he made that very
clear throughout his speech
00:10:52.81\00:10:54.75
was very powerful
that he wasn't beholden
00:10:54.78\00:10:57.72
to the Roman Catholic
Church, that was powerful,
00:10:57.75\00:11:00.19
but what happened was
what emerged from there
00:11:00.22\00:11:02.39
was the election of 1980.
00:11:02.42\00:11:03.99
Ronald Reagan
against Jimmy Carter.
00:11:04.03\00:11:07.30
Jimmy Carter, son of the South,
00:11:07.33\00:11:09.16
Ronald Reagan from California...
00:11:09.20\00:11:11.23
And a deeply
spiritual man as well.
00:11:11.27\00:11:12.67
Lee Atwater, his spin master,
his Karl Rove so to speak,
00:11:12.70\00:11:16.81
his Steve Bannan so to speak,
00:11:16.84\00:11:20.64
came up with the
slogan Reagan Democrats.
00:11:20.68\00:11:24.48
It was an attempt to
win the industrial Midwest
00:11:24.51\00:11:28.65
and the auto industry
00:11:28.68\00:11:30.09
and all the
entire South, guess what?
00:11:30.12\00:11:32.35
By the end of
Reagan's second term in 1988,
00:11:32.39\00:11:36.09
the South had gone from
being nearly 70% Democrat
00:11:36.12\00:11:40.30
to 70% Republican.
00:11:40.33\00:11:42.90
What did they
bring into the party?
00:11:42.93\00:11:44.67
Did the Republican Party stay
in terms of his Lincoln values?
00:11:44.70\00:11:48.74
No. It went
against civil rights.
00:11:48.77\00:11:51.41
It was not the party
of civil rights anymore.
00:11:51.44\00:11:53.44
It gradually
moved away from that.
00:11:53.48\00:11:55.24
It started to adopting
00:11:55.28\00:11:56.81
the Christian
right mantra in that
00:11:56.85\00:12:01.38
they were opposed to the
constitutional separation
00:12:01.42\00:12:03.35
of church and state.
00:12:03.39\00:12:05.19
And so Reagan endorsed them.
00:12:05.22\00:12:08.19
He said to Jerry Falwell,
to Moral Majority convention,
00:12:08.22\00:12:11.09
"I know you can't
endorse me, but I endorse you."
00:12:11.13\00:12:14.06
Remember that famous statement?
00:12:14.10\00:12:15.90
Well, so what emerged from there
00:12:15.93\00:12:18.27
later in 2010 you have
the Tea Party convention.
00:12:18.30\00:12:21.97
And I'll never
forget Sarah Palin,
00:12:22.00\00:12:24.14
spending five minutes,
00:12:24.17\00:12:26.04
five minutes of
her 20-minute speech,
00:12:26.07\00:12:28.04
which is a big chunk,
00:12:28.08\00:12:30.05
she made this appeal to
the working class people,
00:12:30.08\00:12:35.38
labor union workers mainly.
00:12:35.42\00:12:36.95
Her appeal, she
said, labor union members
00:12:36.99\00:12:39.52
okay in her speech,
she appealed to them, okay.
00:12:39.55\00:12:43.02
What's interesting is
that 30% of the Tea Party
00:12:43.06\00:12:48.66
which is a sub-party
within the Republican Party
00:12:48.70\00:12:51.43
was a working class movement
and that movement has now been,
00:12:51.47\00:12:57.64
and by the way
that's mostly a...
00:12:57.67\00:13:00.04
The people that they gained
00:13:00.08\00:13:01.71
most were labor union Catholics,
00:13:01.74\00:13:03.81
Catholics within labor unions.
00:13:03.85\00:13:06.31
And the Catholic
Church became a huge influence
00:13:06.35\00:13:08.58
within the Tea Party
and in the Republican Party,
00:13:08.62\00:13:11.15
and it began to be
00:13:11.19\00:13:13.09
pro-working class and pro-labor.
00:13:13.12\00:13:15.32
Donald Trump seized upon that
00:13:15.36\00:13:17.93
with his populist movement
to gain the working class,
00:13:17.96\00:13:22.66
the Joe Plumber so to speak,
00:13:22.70\00:13:24.50
and so what you
see is a transformation
00:13:24.53\00:13:26.60
of the Republican Party
00:13:26.63\00:13:28.20
that is not the
party of Lincoln anymore.
00:13:28.24\00:13:31.61
And, of course,
according to must Republicans,
00:13:31.64\00:13:34.08
it's not their party anymore,
it's been taken from them.
00:13:34.11\00:13:36.68
Exactly even with... I
mean, by it's recent elect...
00:13:36.71\00:13:39.01
Well, the
establishment Republicans, yes,
00:13:39.05\00:13:41.28
they're very upset
about this as they should be.
00:13:41.32\00:13:44.92
You know, I'm not partisan,
00:13:44.95\00:13:46.29
but I'm a
registered Republican, okay.
00:13:46.32\00:13:48.09
And I'll just tell you that
00:13:48.12\00:13:49.86
it has been
very upsetting to me.
00:13:49.89\00:13:51.29
Yeah.
00:13:51.33\00:13:52.66
Well, we need to continue this
00:13:52.69\00:13:54.03
and give it a
Religious Liberty spin,
00:13:54.06\00:13:56.83
so stay with us.
00:13:56.87\00:13:58.20
We'll take a short break
00:13:58.23\00:13:59.57
and continue this discussion
of what are the parties,
00:13:59.60\00:14:02.30
where they're going,
00:14:02.34\00:14:03.67
and where is religion
figure in all of this.
00:14:03.71\00:14:05.34