Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
bringing you discussion,
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news, up-to-date
information, and insights
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on religious liberty events
in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine
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and my guest is Greg Hamilton,
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president of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
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Good to be here.
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With a grand and presently,
very successful program.
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Thank you.
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Let's talk about something
that I think we're gonna hear
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a lot more about in
the next few months,
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The 1954 Johnson
Amendment as it's known
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or as I like to think of
it, because it didn't die there,
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the story of the Jones
bill of about 15-20 years ago.
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Remind me of that.
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I had a long talk with someone
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that you mentioned in
one of our other programs,
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D. James Kennedy.
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I had him write an
article for Liberty magazine,
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because he was one of the major
proponents for the Jones bill
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which was a proposal through
Congress to allow the churches
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to function as
political action groups,
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whereas D. James
Kennedy often said,
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he says, "Unbind the
churches, let them free."
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And they would have been
free to raise unlimited amounts
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of money for
political campaigns,
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promote any candidate they want,
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and in essence, become
political action groups.
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And that was interesting
because that was at the time,
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I think it was Feingold,
who was the other proponent,
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the Campaign Reform Act.
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Russell Feingold,
the McCain Feingold Act.
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McCain Feingold,
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that was limiting the amount
of money that could be given...
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Right, which was struck down
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by Citizens United
at the Supreme Court.
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Yes, that's a good point.
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But anyhow, at that time,
the churches would have emerged
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as major political
forces but the irony is,
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as you know now, and
we want to talk about it,
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this new administration
are openly talking
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about doing away with
the Johnson Amendment.
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Now what was the
Johnson Amendment?
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Well, the Johnson Amendment
arose through the actions
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and the efforts of then Senator,
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Lyndon B. Johnson or LBJ,
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who became President
after the assassination
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of John F.
Kennedy, and essentially,
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the attempt by LBJ
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was to limit the
influence of interest groups
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to affect political
outcomes, electoral outcomes,
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and to make public policy.
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Now...
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He did this as a payback,
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because the
churches were quite active
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in supporting his
political opponent,
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I think for his
re-election or a major campaign.
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So it was really designed
directly to punish them.
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Yeah, but it was aimed basically
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at religious interest groups
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and not so much
churches but, nevertheless...
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Well,
non-profits came under that.
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That's right, so, nevertheless,
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the Johnson
Amendment was proposed.
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It passed Congress and
it's been regulatory law
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for the IRS ever since,
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in terms of what churches can do
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and what it can't do.
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Now, it should be understood
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what the Johnson
Amendment actually allows.
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It's not as limiting
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as the
evangelical right in America
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would make everybody
believe and that's the problem,
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is that a lot of propaganda
is out there that's false.
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Well, it creates an inhibition.
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In fact, I don't know
that there's too many cases
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of where action was
taken to enforce it.
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Yeah.
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There was
initially, about, in fact,
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back in the 1990s
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with the emergence of
the Christian Coalition
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and Pat
Robertson's organization,
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especially with
their voter cards
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and is this a
violation of the...
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Well, there's some
talk and I remember,
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Dr. Dobson had to
create a separate subsection
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to his organization because
he was at risk under this
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but nothing was
ever done against him.
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Right.
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And there has
been some murmuring
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about some left wing
Christian organizations
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because, obviously,
they were what the people,
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like, were
supporting were offensive
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but nothing much
done that I know of.
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Well, the voting cards
even at the Christian Coalition,
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the guidelines that they
put out for people to look at
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whether a senator or a
representative in Congress
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voted a certain way and
what their scorecard was
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on particular issues
that were of interest
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to the Christian
Coalition at that time,
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and Pat Robertson still puts out
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that voting
scorecard by the way,
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but they found when
it was taken to court
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by American United
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for Separation
of Church and State,
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they took Pat Robertson's
organization to court
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and the court
says, well, ultimately,
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none of those scorecards
endorse a particular candidate,
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it doesn't directly endorse.
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It may suggest but it
doesn't directly endorse
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and so that
created a wider chasm
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and from that point on,
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it seemed that the IRS
relaxed the Johnson Amendment,
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in terms of its application
including, especially,
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they've never really touched
African-American churches
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which have
always been very vocal
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about civil
rights and racial issues.
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Now, you're getting at my view.
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I haven't read this anywhere
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but I read
history and my deduction
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that I, I would
defend this a long way.
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I think Lyndon
Johnson's action was, we know,
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was personal
'cause he was a very...
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Right.
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He could be a mean politician,
so he was one to hit this...
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But he was very charismatic
about it and very successful.
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But still, why
did it get through?
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It couldn't have gotten through
just on his personal animus.
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That 1954 was the year of
Brown v. Board of Education
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That was the beginning
of the civil rights movement
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and what was the civil rights
movement carried forward on?
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The black protestant churches,
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and I believe Johnson was...
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If he was nothing
else, he wasn't a southerner.
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I think it suited
them to trim the sails
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of the black
churches at that time
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and so that's the subtext of it.
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It was also that...
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And I would want to support
that sort of church activity.
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This is the great irony.
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We don't want
churches becoming political,
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but we also don't
want the politicians
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restricting moral
actions by the churches.
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It was at the height
also of McCarthyism in 1954.
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A very bad era, very
bad era in the US history.
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And it was also the year
in which under god was added
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to the Pledge of Allegiance
which was interesting.
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It was a strategic move
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by the Eisenhower administration
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to basically say
to the Soviet Union
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that we believe in God,
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you don't, essentially,
and so it was a strategic move
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but back to what the
Johnson Amendment allows
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and what it doesn't allow,
the Johnson Amendment allows
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for you to
speak on moral issues,
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on religious issues,
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on even political
issues attached to religious
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and civil moral issues.
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And so this idea
that you cannot speak
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about these issues
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even if they're attached
to a particular candidate
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at that time, or even a
President running for office,
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or a mayor, or a city
or county counsel man,
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or whoever, all
levels of government,
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you can do that.
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You can even get your
church involved in referenda,
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that does not violate
the Johnson Amendment,
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so this idea that
somehow if you say something
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about same sex
marriage or you say something
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about abortion for the pulpit
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or any of those issues,
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that somehow you're
gonna be investigated by IRS
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and you're going to be
under a lawsuit is nonsense.
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It is absolute nonsense.
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And so people have to understand
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what it doesn't allow.
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What it restricts is it says
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that you cannot
endorse a particular candidate,
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so what you can do,
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here's part of what you can do.
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Let's say a church
wants to invite a legislator,
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or a representative, or a
mayor who is running for office,
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they have to invite
also the opposing candidate.
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If they invite both,
then they're within the law,
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the parameters of the
law, and so our church,
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for example, the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
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takes it one step further.
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We say, "Well, you
know, if you invite both
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and only one is
proposing to come,
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just say no to both."
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It's just better to
not have the appearance,
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so that you
don't follow through.
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Well, I hope we
take it the other step,
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that might be
legal, it's not proper
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to have political
eliters holding forth
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in the divine
service time, in my view.
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Right.
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Well, we should be very careful
about giving them sacred time.
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Yes.
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I had a huge
issue with the pastor
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in Australia on that.
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They had the speaker
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of the State Parliament come in.
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He was there because
he was presenting a flag
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to the pathfinders,
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but it ended up that
they gave him the pulpit.
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I was preaching that
day and I just thought
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it crossed the line
of inappropriateness
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in God's temple.
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And I got up and
I said, "You know,
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people will dedicate their lives
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to political
leadership, and that's fine."
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But I said, "In this building,
they have no higher standing,
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in fact, a lower standing
than one of God's saints.
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This is God's house."
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And you know the
principle very well.
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In the middle ages,
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the church was not
a secular territory.
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You could get sanctuary in it.
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We're gonna revisit that
soon with the deportations
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in the
sanctuaries being offered.
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So we got to be
careful about that,
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but as far as
dealing with the law
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and undue
political entanglement.
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The point is very good
that you need to be evenhanded,
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and, of course, this program,
you and I are talking politics
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the whole time,
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there's nothing wrong with that.
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We're not partisan.
Right, that's right.
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To be partisan is inappropriate.
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Well, and it depends.
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You can be perceived as partisan
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if you're hammering
out a particular issue,
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whether it's
abortion or anything else
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but that still doesn't violate
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the Johnson
Amendment, just to be clear.
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No, well, partisan is to be,
00:10:16.64\00:10:17.98
is Ellen White
speaking to our own memberships.
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She was against those
that had a party affiliation,
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that were on a party platform.
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And that's where I
was trying to go with this
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and I would like to
explain the final thing
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that the Johnson Amendment
doesn't allow for and that is,
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it doesn't allow for any
endorsement of any candidates
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or fund raising or
campaigning for a candidate,
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and so that's crucial
because what the proponents
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who want to repeal
the Johnson Amendment
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including Donald Trump,
who's promised that he's going,
00:10:46.51\00:10:49.21
you need to put
forward an executive order
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or it's gonna get past through
Congress and, by the way,
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there is a Congressional bill
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It's House Joint Resolution 172,
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as we speak right now,
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and then there is a
Senate Joint Resolution,
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I think it's 264 or
274, I forget which one it is
00:11:00.99\00:11:06.33
but, anyway, the Senate
Bill is not, is much more,
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is not a bad bill per se
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but the House Bill
would allow churches
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to use 25% of its
budget for fund raising
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and endorsing of
candidates directly,
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so not only can you
preach from the pulpit a sermon
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why a candidate
should be elected,
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you can use 25% of the offerings
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given by church members,
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that a church board
can then turn around
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and use your
tax deductible money
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to then support a candidate.
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Now, can you imagine
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how fast church
coffers would dry up
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if that was allowed?
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You talk about the
divisiveness within a church,
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I mean, now it might
not affect mega churches
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but the average, you
know, country church out there,
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it would affect
them tremendously.
00:11:59.28\00:12:00.72
Well, very
soon, as in some ways,
00:12:00.75\00:12:03.75
in more humorous moments,
00:12:03.79\00:12:06.12
I make a comment about
some of our membership,
00:12:06.15\00:12:08.49
very soon you would
have a whole denomination,
00:12:08.52\00:12:11.66
perhaps, that's reflective
of a certain political bias.
00:12:11.69\00:12:14.43
They're all of one mind. Yes.
00:12:14.46\00:12:16.26
You're not gonna
have a cross-section
00:12:16.30\00:12:17.63
of the political community
00:12:17.67\00:12:20.00
united on the spiritual reality.
00:12:20.04\00:12:22.74
And the other thing
that's worth remembering
00:12:22.77\00:12:24.41
and I think it's implicit
in the Johnson Amendment.
00:12:24.44\00:12:27.38
He presented that
amendment to punish those
00:12:27.41\00:12:33.11
that had supported his opponent.
00:12:33.15\00:12:34.48
Right.
00:12:34.52\00:12:35.85
Well, undoing, the
bill is actually going
00:12:35.88\00:12:37.75
to increase the
likelihood of punishment again.
00:12:37.79\00:12:39.85
The bill may end
loud, but I can tell you,
00:12:39.89\00:12:42.66
if one party that loses
and then gets power again,
00:12:42.69\00:12:45.89
sees that they were attacked
by certain religious groups,
00:12:45.93\00:12:49.83
they would go for them
00:12:49.86\00:12:51.20
in other ways, that's
the way politics works.
00:12:51.23\00:12:54.44
There's winners and losers.
00:12:54.47\00:12:56.00
Well, basically, we turn
churches into super PACs,
00:12:56.04\00:12:59.71
in terms of the
ability to raise money
00:12:59.74\00:13:01.74
and support
candidates and to me...
00:13:01.78\00:13:03.35
You came under attack
under the Obama administration.
00:13:03.38\00:13:05.75
The...
00:13:05.78\00:13:07.12
Taxation
department were actually, IRS,
00:13:12.45\00:13:16.73
there was a
wink-wink, nudge-nudge,
00:13:16.76\00:13:18.73
pretty much go after them.
00:13:18.76\00:13:20.10
Yes.
00:13:20.13\00:13:21.46
That was quite a
scandal but it would basically
00:13:21.50\00:13:24.20
turn churches into super PACs
00:13:24.23\00:13:25.93
and it's what I call
the temptation of power
00:13:25.97\00:13:28.84
and a prophetic warning.
00:13:28.87\00:13:30.51
This idea that
politicians can use churches
00:13:30.54\00:13:36.34
for the
advancement of their own need
00:13:36.38\00:13:42.68
for power and
position is very problematic,
00:13:42.72\00:13:46.59
because anytime
church moneys would be used
00:13:46.62\00:13:51.63
to supporting
political candidates,
00:13:51.66\00:13:54.36
it puts the church in a position
00:13:54.40\00:13:56.67
of power to shape
electoral outcomes
00:13:56.70\00:14:01.07
and to shape public policy,
00:14:01.10\00:14:04.64
to determine
public policy outcomes.
00:14:04.67\00:14:07.24
It reminds me of
what Ellen G White wrote
00:14:07.28\00:14:09.84
in The Great Controversy.
00:14:09.88\00:14:11.21
Seventh-day
Adventist... Page 443.
00:14:11.25\00:14:13.92
Great Controversy, page 443.
00:14:13.95\00:14:15.65
She says, "In order
for the United States,"
00:14:15.68\00:14:17.59
that's our country, "In
order for the United States
00:14:17.62\00:14:19.95
to form an image of the beast,
00:14:19.99\00:14:21.82
i.e., in the
likeness of papal Rome,
00:14:21.86\00:14:24.19
during a 1260-year period
00:14:24.23\00:14:25.93
in which the church
manipulated, dominated,
00:14:25.96\00:14:28.00
and controlled
both kings and emperors,
00:14:28.03\00:14:30.47
the religious powers,
00:14:30.50\00:14:32.37
must so control
the civil government,
00:14:32.40\00:14:34.17
that the authority of the
state will also be employed
00:14:34.20\00:14:36.87
by the church to
accomplish her own ends."
00:14:36.91\00:14:39.77
To me, that puts the churches
in a, you say, well, okay,
00:14:39.81\00:14:43.08
politicians are using churches.
00:14:43.11\00:14:44.85
But if churches
are willingly used
00:14:44.88\00:14:47.28
to jump into the political fray
00:14:47.32\00:14:49.38
and to control
electoral outcomes
00:14:49.42\00:14:52.12
and to control public policy...
00:14:52.15\00:14:54.59
And becoming the second...
00:14:54.62\00:14:56.06
It is the setting
up of the foundation
00:14:56.09\00:14:58.26
for the prophetic
image to the beast.
00:14:58.29\00:14:59.63
Absolutely, let's take a break.
00:14:59.66\00:15:01.60
We'll be back shortly after
to continue this discussion,
00:15:01.63\00:15:05.00
this prophetic discussion.
00:15:05.03\00:15:06.80