Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Greg Hamilton
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000360B
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00:05 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break, with guest Greg Hamilton, 00:09 we were going hammer and tongs 00:11 on what started with the discussion 00:14 of Dignitatis humanae and, of course, 00:17 the nature of federalism, 00:18 the nature of the Roman Catholic church 00:20 and perhaps, why there, well, that's a good document. 00:24 They fatally flowed in carrying it forward 00:26 because as I've often written at Liberty, 00:30 the Roman Catholic church is a church, 00:33 sometimes masquerading as a state, 00:35 other times, it's a state masquerading 00:37 or presenting itself as a church. 00:39 So they can't be an honest broker 00:41 on separation of that. 00:42 The problem with Dignitatis humanae is 00:44 it's a rejection of the Protestant foundations 00:47 of America and its constitution. 00:50 Say that again. 00:52 It's a rejection, in the sense, 00:53 that it doesn't accept 00:55 the constitutional separation of church and state. 00:57 Dignitatis humanae. Yes, it is... 01:00 By omission. By omission. 01:02 Yeah, but it doesn't speak to that? 01:04 No, it does not. 01:05 But it's purposeful, it's obvious, why wouldn't? 01:08 I mean, Vatican II would never accept, 01:10 I mean, the holy sea, 01:11 the Vatican will never accept such a separation 01:14 because they themselves are again... 01:16 No, they cannot. 01:18 They are a sovereign, 01:19 considered a sovereign nation state. 01:21 The only church that's recognized as such. 01:22 So it's church stay united. 01:24 And ironically, Islam, 01:26 which is not structurally monolithic, 01:28 the same way Roman Catholic church, 01:30 but Islam can never accept separation of church and state. 01:32 It's antithetical to the very heart 01:35 of their theology and their faith. 01:38 But I mentioned it before on this program 01:41 but perhaps, not to you. 01:45 Some time ago, I heard Cardinal Dolan 01:48 speaking on religious liberty and he spoke very well, 01:51 I didn't agree with his point 01:53 because he was critiquing Obama. 01:55 Arch bishop of New York? 01:57 Yes, and the newest cardinal of that time 02:00 and headed the US Catholic Bishops 02:02 and he was carrying on very nicely 02:04 and then he stopped. 02:06 It was to a catholic audience and after a break, 02:09 he looked around and sort of like, 02:10 he'd come out of a fog and he says, "You know," 02:13 he says, "there was a time 02:14 Roman Catholics would not have spoken this way 02:16 about religious liberty." 02:18 He said, "We once held that era has no rights." 02:22 And that is the historic view of the Roman Catholic church. 02:25 And then, along came Dignitatis humanae, 02:29 my view and I've said it on this program, 02:32 there are many other subtexts, 02:34 you can comment in different ways 02:35 but watch that statement, 02:37 "When the Roman Catholic church goes self on it, 02:40 then all hell will break loose." 02:43 Because this view on separation or non-separation 02:46 will kick in the old view of an obligation 02:51 to even persecute, the dissident will kick in. 02:55 Dignitatis humanae has influenced nations world wide. 02:59 It's influenced the United Nations. 03:02 It's influenced even Indonesia 03:04 with their new constitution notice, Pancasila. 03:07 Pancasila is a five-pillared document 03:11 which basically emphasizes 03:12 the doctrine of "peaceful coexistence." 03:15 In fact, even the organization of Islamic cooperation, 03:19 57 Muslim nations believe in the same thing, 03:22 this doctrine of peaceful coexistence. 03:24 What is that? 03:25 And it emanates from Dignitatis humanae. 03:27 What is that? 03:28 That you have a right to peacefully coexist, 03:31 that free exercise of religion is cherished. 03:35 It should be sanctified, blessed, it is something 03:38 that should not be obstructed or abused, 03:44 it is sacrosanct 03:45 and so Dignitatis humanae put forward this whole idea 03:51 of peaceful coexistence 03:53 and this elicits the way the world has interpreted it 03:56 and the way it has adopted it. 03:58 This idea that you have a right to peacefully coexist. 04:00 So let's say, your congregation is puritan, 04:04 during the time of the puritan colonies. 04:06 You're Quakers, you're Catholics, 04:08 you are Baptists, Jews, 04:10 you have a right to peacefully coexist with us 04:13 but don't you dare proselytize us, 04:15 don't you dare evangelize us. 04:17 The Dignitatis humanae says particularly, 04:19 you have the right to change your religion 04:21 and I know that's not accepted by the Islamic coalitions. 04:24 That's true, and there is a difference here. 04:25 There's a difference, but... 04:27 Especially at the UN level. 04:28 There is a clear difference there. 04:29 But the problem is, 04:31 is when you look at the interfaith model 04:34 and how they're influenced. 04:36 There still is this idea, this idea of, 04:40 Yes, you have a right to change your religion 04:43 but there still is a spirit 04:45 that we really don't want you to evangelize 04:48 and you see this, not only in the Roman Catholic world 04:52 but you see this at the Russian Duma, 04:55 for example, Russia's parliament. 04:56 Russia just passed a law 04:58 that says that proselytization or evangelization 05:02 is not tolerated, it's not allowed. 05:05 Now they are the first big major super power nation 05:08 to go down that road but there has been an emphasis 05:11 that's been growing towards that line of thinking. 05:14 Even Pope Francis, 05:16 when he was returning from the Philippines 05:18 and he heard about the massacre 05:20 at the Charlie Hebdo magazine in Paris, France, 05:22 by two ISIS inspired gunmen, he said, 05:26 "Proselytism as we know, it must end, okay, 05:30 for the sake of world peace." 05:32 Now I thought that was interesting. 05:33 Now when you go to Romania, you go to eastern Europe, 05:35 or you go to any part of the eastern world, 05:37 the word, proselytize, means to coerce, 05:41 in other words, they view proselytize in a different way, 05:44 to proselytize in the English western world, 05:47 means simply to speak freely, to share freely, okay? 05:51 And which is protected by articles 18 and 19 05:54 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 05:56 which is the religious freedom and free speech clauses. 05:59 Now, you and I both know 06:00 the organization with Islamic cooperation, 06:02 57 nations has tried to amend those 06:04 to include blasphemy law language, 06:06 that is to allow any nation to punish anybody proselytizing 06:11 or evangelizing in their country. 06:13 Or where an offense is given nor taken. 06:16 They don't want anything said to critique their religion. 06:19 Dignitatis humanae does not directly, obviously, 06:23 promote the idea centering other religions, 06:27 but nevertheless, the very fact 06:30 that it omits the doctrinal separation of church and state, 06:35 lends itself towards allying itself 06:39 with the doctrine of peaceful coexistence, 06:41 it's a natural ally. 06:42 Yeah, now I agree with you. 06:44 It's not in the document. 06:45 You need to make that plain. Right. 06:47 And what I believe that you're describing 06:50 is something that I've seen for a long time. 06:51 The only old isms are collapsing, 06:54 even communism in China, 06:56 it's really an acronymism, 06:57 then they're not communism in any classic sense. 07:01 Capitalism, you know, 07:03 Trump might be peering to reinstate it, 07:06 but in reality, capitalism is discredited. 07:08 Imperialism is gone, nor there is nationalism, 07:11 it doesn't exist in its old form. 07:13 What's developing are religious identities 07:16 and that is moving into function like nationalism, 07:21 and Russia has done that in opposing terrorism. 07:25 It's now, to be Russian, 07:27 is defined as to be an unorthodox 07:29 and I think we are on the verge of something similar 07:31 in the United States. 07:32 A generic government organized and sanctioned Christianity 07:37 will become America, American. 07:39 Well, in tying in together 07:41 with the doctrine of peaceful coexistence. 07:43 And see if I'm a prophet, I do not believe 07:47 Islam will make the cut on this, this coalition. 07:50 No, I don't think so either. I agree with you. 07:53 But the doctrine of peaceful coexistence 07:55 is an international movement, 07:56 more than it is a national movement here in United States. 08:00 It's less domestic-inspired. Now, it's growing strong. 08:02 Oh, spread in every country, 08:03 all the major countries are playing it up. 08:05 And you mentioned Indonesia, same thing. 08:07 They're attempting, I mean, 08:08 they have a common Islamic identity 08:11 but they're creating it from another perspective 08:14 using the same forces. 08:16 It's growing strong here in United States 08:18 but it's still not really taken root 08:21 and if you look at the Christian right, 08:23 the Christian right and the fact 08:25 that United States is the dominant superpower 08:27 and the last superpower in prophecy. 08:30 The emergence of the Christian right, 08:32 the evangelical right along with the Catholic right, 08:35 is more powerful in terms of its influence of effecting 08:41 and eventually, manipulating and controlling government. 08:44 And you and I use the right is the best descriptive, 08:48 but it's not hard co-conservative anymore. 08:51 What? 08:52 This religio-political force that's gathering its team. 08:56 Yes, well, because they're trying to be mainstreamed. 08:59 They realized they're losing young people right 09:00 and left that are very much 09:02 for the constitutional separation of church and state. 09:04 So they're trying to remake themselves right. 09:06 Well, they are religiously more liberal. 09:10 They have much the same political agenda, 09:12 but they're not drawn from the, you know, 09:16 the old stalled puritans anymore. 09:17 A perfect example of that 09:19 is the emergence of Russell Moore, 09:21 the head of the Southern Baptist Ethics Commission 09:25 and he has come out very moderate in his statements. 09:29 Very pro, not like free exercise of religion 09:31 but even, somewhat guarding 09:34 even the constitutional separation of church and state 09:35 which was what they used to do years ago. 09:37 He's actually trying to bring Baptists back 09:40 to more of a fundamental foundational understanding 09:43 of religious freedom. 09:45 It's a big time for you to throw in a disclaimer 09:47 or a qualifier. 09:48 I don't think that everything the religious right 09:50 is up to is bad. 09:52 No, not at all. 09:53 The way I usually say it in Liberty, 09:55 "I agree with just about everything that concerns them, 09:58 but it's problematic 10:00 how they're solving the problem, 10:03 direct use of political power, 10:05 not to concern with the rights of a majority, 10:07 if they can get it through to support their view, 10:09 that's fine." 10:11 Yeah, and to me, the whole funding issue 10:13 which we haven't talked about is another matter all together. 10:16 But, so this is interesting. 10:18 You've connected this to dignitatis humanae 10:21 which I think is a reasonable jumping off point, 10:23 but it's not a Catholic movement per se. 10:25 The Roman Catholics have greatly influenced 10:27 the political Protestant picture in the US, 10:31 but I do believe that Protestantism on its own 10:36 is moving in a very liberal, monolithic direction 10:40 and to blur the distinguishment to inseparation of church 10:42 and state, right? 10:44 Yes, absolutely. 10:45 I think the constitutional separation of church and state 10:49 as a Protestant founding principle in our country 10:53 is something that's being lost sight of, 10:55 and I think it's a trend, it's a Catholic trend 10:59 that seeks to redefine religious freedom in America 11:02 and to me, that's prophetic. 11:04 For many of us involved in religious liberty, 11:08 there's much to find in Vatican II, 11:11 a great church council of the Roman Catholic Church. 11:14 In particular, a document with a Latin title 11:17 and ironically, this was the church council 11:20 that allowed the mess and other liturgies 11:22 to be conducted in the vernacular. 11:25 This is Latin but it means the dignity of man. 11:29 And we have to command the Roman Catholic church 11:31 for coming part of the way, across to understanding 11:34 what the Protestant will long fought for, 11:37 the dignity of the human being 11:39 to determine their own spiritual identity 11:43 and, of course, to directly relate to God in heaven, 11:46 not through human intermediaries. 11:48 But there may be a little more to it 11:50 and while dignitatis humanae stands for now, 11:54 it's very important that in the United States at least, 11:57 with that particular constitutional construct, 11:59 that we cling to the separation of church and state 12:03 as a protective element. 12:06 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-05-01