Welcome back after the
break with my aggressive guest,
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who plays very kindly.
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Before the break,
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we were talking
again peripherally
00:00:15.08\00:00:17.48
about the Reformation,
00:00:17.51\00:00:19.61
but how it relates to
what we are living through
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in the United
States at the moment
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which as we were
saying during the break
00:00:23.62\00:00:25.82
in a many ways
00:00:25.85\00:00:27.19
is a literal
political revolution.
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Yes.
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This wasn't just
an unusual election.
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Not all revolutions are
through force or the military,
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this was a peaceful revolution
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and the reason
that I use that term
00:00:38.47\00:00:39.97
is because it
overturned both establishments.
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Even though technically,
the Republican candidate won,
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all of the establishment
Republican candidates lost.
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Well, for a big
part of the election,
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the whole
Republican infrastructure
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was opposed to Trump.
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Not, it's right.
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And they had to
swallow hard and accept him,
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when he was unstoppable.
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This was a new outside force,
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the first true outsider
for a long, long time to come
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into Washington and take power.
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And I don't even read
about it but it's curious to me
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that for a lot of
his life and career,
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the president was a Democrat.
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That's right.
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Not something they want
ever democrat pro-choice,
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variety of views that he...
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Which in its own way is
a vindication of the system
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that they could be a relatively
peaceful transfer of power.
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And yet the entangling element
I think is after he's elected,
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it's almost impossible to
fill the thousands of positions
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required of a new administration
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without drawing
from functionaries
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if not
establishment individuals.
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Well, there was...
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Typically in
changes of administration,
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many of the people stay on
from the old administration
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until new hires can happen.
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But this time around,
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it seems at least above a
certain level of seniority
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that the Trump administration
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asked for immediate resignation,
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so that there's
hundreds of positions
00:02:04.19\00:02:07.59
that are apparently unfilled
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and will have to
be filled rapidly.
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So it's a time like
no other in my lifetime.
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I think I heard several thousand
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when it goes all down,
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but there's certainly
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a couple of
hundred major positions.
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Hundreds of key positions.
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So it's...
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We're living in a
political time like not
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since I was born 50
years ago at this point.
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And the question
is as a Christian
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how do you relate to
times of political uncertainty
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to new leadership.
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How about going to poll.
We would talk about that.
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That you may disagree with
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and we may have
disagreed with the leadership,
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if the other president,
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the other candidate
had been elected president,
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but we have a
very serious question,
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what does Paul say?
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And I think there's
three things from Romans 13,
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it's his famous passage
that many people read in
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as to submitting
to the civil rulers,
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but if you read
the passage carefully,
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yes, it's true.
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There's three things
we should at least do.
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Pray for our rulers
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even when we
don't agree with them,
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respect them, they are in
the position of authority.
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We were told to
even pray for those
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that despitefully
use us so that's...
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Prayer.
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Threshold for that is very low.
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Respect.
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And even respect
and even obedience
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when it doesn't mean
contrary to the law of God
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which can be
both his written law
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or the moral law of nature,
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but I think there is something
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that can be
implied also from Romans 13
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where it says the
government is a minister of God
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to punish evil
and to reward good.
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And if you live in a republic
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which is a
government of the people,
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by the people,
and for the people,
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you are actually part
of the governmental system
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as a citizen.
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And under this framework then,
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you now have a divine
heavenly responsibility
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to provide
oversight and accountability
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to make sure the
government does punish only evil
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and it does reward good.
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And if it starts
doing the opposite,
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then I would suggest
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in our republican
system of government,
00:04:02.27\00:04:04.01
we have a role to
call our representatives
00:04:04.04\00:04:07.14
to write letters
to our leadership
00:04:07.18\00:04:09.01
to be actively
engaged in pushing back.
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And this is a big
part of religious liberty,
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we are encouraging
people to make that contact
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with legislators
to be aware of laws
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and proposals and be watchman.
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To send e-mails, to send letters
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and most recently I was...
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sought some
advice from an expert
00:04:29.33\00:04:32.27
in government lobbying.
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And they say the most effective
form of giving feedback
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to your
Washington representatives,
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pick up the phone
and make a phone call.
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They can ignore
e-mails and tweets,
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and even written letters,
not that they ignore them,
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but they give
them much less weight,
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if their phone lines
get flooded with concerns
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on a particular issue...
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It's true. They pay attention.
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And I'm not sure written letters
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are always delivered
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with fear of things
in the mail nowadays.
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Right.
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So the telephone
seems to be the strongest...
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Yeah. That's a good point.
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Avenue of communication.
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So...
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Where are we with the future?
00:05:08.34\00:05:11.67
It's hard to project
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and as I even said
before this program,
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you know, we've got to
be as supportive as we can
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because with this
new administration,
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we certainly
don't yet quite know
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the full lay of the land, do we?
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No.
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We'll be
praying for the success,
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as with every administration.
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As the administration
succeed so does the country,
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so we're certainly
in favor of success.
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Yeah.
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But, I think
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quite apart from who's
actually holding the position,
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I think there's been
good reason for a while to,
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to sort of...
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Well, I think you and me
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and many other
fellow Christians,
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we see many signs,
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abundant signs of
what's happening in the US
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and in the world that
these are last day signs,
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prophetically significant.
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This is not business as usual.
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We've been told that
before the very final events
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that the principles of
the United States Constitution
00:06:03.63\00:06:07.03
will be
overridden, will be undercut,
00:06:07.06\00:06:11.23
will be set aside.
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And so that's not just
repudiated is a critical word.
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So it's not just to do
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with the separation
of church and state,
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but the other principles
of the separation of powers
00:06:20.81\00:06:23.14
of various other
freedoms, freedom of the press.
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And I have to say
that this is something
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that is concerning me,
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there's been a lot of
maligning of the press.
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Now believe me, the
press isn't perfect.
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I've worked in the government
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and I've worked
in private practice
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as a lawyer,
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and they often slant things
from prejudicial perspectives,
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there is a left wing bias,
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but for the most part,
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the mainstream press
at least hasn't reported
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just overtly false facts.
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And when that has happened,
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they are very quick
to do with retractions,
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and I think that the
level of demonization
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that they are undergoing,
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it overlooks the fact that
our founders viewed the press
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as the fourth estate,
00:07:05.92\00:07:07.36
as a kind of part of government,
00:07:07.39\00:07:09.52
not being
controlled by government,
00:07:09.56\00:07:11.53
but they are the thing
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that sheds light
on what's happening
00:07:13.23\00:07:15.90
and gives
transparency to events,
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because if they don't report
on what the government is doing
00:07:17.63\00:07:20.14
or what's happening
in the public square
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or in Congress,
how are we to know?
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I agree with your point
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although I'm
thinking of US history.
00:07:25.84\00:07:27.74
I think it was
Franklin's son-in-law
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was the publisher of the Aurora,
00:07:32.68\00:07:35.58
you know the story of that?
00:07:35.62\00:07:36.95
One of the biggest
newspapers at that time
00:07:36.99\00:07:39.09
and they had huge
problems with Adams
00:07:39.12\00:07:44.19
under the Alien
and Sedition Acts,
00:07:44.23\00:07:45.69
that there was an attempt
00:07:45.73\00:07:47.06
to totally close
down that major newspaper.
00:07:47.10\00:07:50.23
So the
administration's suspicion
00:07:50.27\00:07:53.77
and even
handing of the press is,
00:07:53.80\00:07:56.27
I think on a new level,
but it's not a new thing.
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It's an old thing.
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It's also part of
this balancing of powers
00:08:00.88\00:08:03.35
and the fight between,
00:08:03.38\00:08:04.95
what they call it
the fourth estate.
00:08:04.98\00:08:06.65
But I think
what is a newer thing
00:08:06.68\00:08:08.88
is a combination of the
wide popular unhappiness
00:08:08.92\00:08:14.26
with the press.
00:08:14.29\00:08:15.62
And I can't say
that I've ever seen
00:08:15.66\00:08:17.63
the equivalent
of the kind of abuse
00:08:17.66\00:08:20.16
that the administration
has leveled at the press,
00:08:20.20\00:08:23.00
you know, calling them
purveyors of false news,
00:08:23.03\00:08:25.60
of being horrible
people of painting them up
00:08:25.63\00:08:30.24
at his rallies,
00:08:30.27\00:08:31.77
and calling on
people to, you know,
00:08:31.81\00:08:35.88
disparage them
and it's troubling,
00:08:35.91\00:08:38.91
it's troubling.
00:08:38.95\00:08:40.28
Well, it's an attempt
00:08:40.32\00:08:41.65
to control the
message to the people
00:08:41.68\00:08:44.32
which has been done
many, many times before.
00:08:44.35\00:08:46.45
And in our modern era,
00:08:46.49\00:08:48.56
the whole art form was developed
00:08:48.59\00:08:52.13
that's pitched by
the Nazis propaganda,
00:08:52.16\00:08:55.00
and it's...
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I'm not leveling at
this administration.
00:08:56.40\00:08:59.17
In most of the world since then,
00:08:59.20\00:09:01.64
that's been a
common tool, propaganda,
00:09:01.67\00:09:04.87
particularly in wartime.
00:09:04.91\00:09:08.04
Facts designed to
either blind people to facts
00:09:08.08\00:09:11.45
or give them false facts.
00:09:11.48\00:09:12.88
Or alternate facts. Yeah.
00:09:12.91\00:09:14.42
And then, I think
that's come together
00:09:14.45\00:09:16.79
with the internet
00:09:16.82\00:09:18.15
which is sort of
democratized information,
00:09:18.19\00:09:20.79
but you have no filter
to tell if it's true or not.
00:09:20.82\00:09:24.06
And people are being
swamped by unprovable facts.
00:09:24.09\00:09:27.53
They're being often misled
by government information.
00:09:27.56\00:09:32.20
And the media, like you said,
00:09:32.23\00:09:33.57
they have both the
buyers and in the United States,
00:09:33.60\00:09:35.94
anybody that's ever
visited outside the US
00:09:35.97\00:09:38.54
knows that the media
in the US are very myopic.
00:09:38.57\00:09:41.84
They don't tell you
very much or know very much.
00:09:41.88\00:09:44.51
But usually they've
said mostly true things.
00:09:44.55\00:09:48.28
It is selective slice of reality
00:09:48.32\00:09:51.15
with a certain slant to it,
00:09:51.19\00:09:53.12
but problematically these
days, we're being given...
00:09:53.15\00:09:56.83
People can have
their own set of facts.
00:09:56.86\00:09:59.19
And a history
professor of mine used to say,
00:09:59.23\00:10:02.63
"You are entitled
to your own opinion,
00:10:02.66\00:10:04.83
but you can't
have your own facts.
00:10:04.87\00:10:06.63
Facts are
publicly to read upon."
00:10:06.67\00:10:08.50
Well, hard information. Right.
00:10:08.54\00:10:11.01
But what passes for news anymore
00:10:11.04\00:10:12.84
is really opinion most times.
00:10:12.87\00:10:14.58
Often, too often.
00:10:14.61\00:10:15.98
It isn't that
such and such a thing
00:10:16.01\00:10:17.55
happened on such
and such a day that,
00:10:17.58\00:10:19.41
it's, you know, this
person did this because...
00:10:19.45\00:10:23.72
Well, I hope that
we've moved astray a bit
00:10:23.75\00:10:27.29
from talking
about religious freedom.
00:10:27.32\00:10:29.02
Well, it's all to
do with freedom things
00:10:29.06\00:10:31.09
and you can't, as you know,
00:10:31.13\00:10:32.46
you can't separate one
civil liberty from another.
00:10:32.49\00:10:36.10
And I'll put it this way.
00:10:36.13\00:10:39.03
I believe with the evolving
civil liberties in general,
00:10:39.07\00:10:43.34
religious liberty
is in mortal threat
00:10:43.37\00:10:45.51
at the moment, and
it appears otherwise
00:10:45.54\00:10:47.41
because of
openness of separation.
00:10:47.44\00:10:49.88
And that's the thought
00:10:49.91\00:10:51.25
that I would end with is
that freedoms and liberties
00:10:51.28\00:10:54.68
are not discrete elements
00:10:54.72\00:10:56.15
but they're all
part of a single package.
00:10:56.18\00:10:58.42
And when one freedom or liberty
begins to being undermined,
00:10:58.45\00:11:01.56
the rest is threatened.
00:11:01.59\00:11:02.92
Freedom of the
press, freedom of assembly,
00:11:02.96\00:11:05.73
racial freedoms and liberties,
00:11:05.76\00:11:08.20
all these things contribute
to a freedom of religion
00:11:08.23\00:11:12.23
and we need to embrace
and defend the package.
00:11:12.27\00:11:16.60
The Reformation is certainly
a guiding principle even today.
00:11:16.64\00:11:21.91
When we apply those principles
00:11:21.94\00:11:23.61
though to our governing leaders,
00:11:23.65\00:11:25.65
we might find
that our expectation
00:11:25.68\00:11:28.92
or their reality
is a little lacking.
00:11:28.95\00:11:32.05
I do believe we need
to pray for our leadership
00:11:32.09\00:11:34.62
in the United
States in particular,
00:11:34.66\00:11:36.19
since that's
what we're discussing.
00:11:36.22\00:11:37.86
But wherever
they are to be found,
00:11:37.89\00:11:40.86
it's worth
remembering though the principle
00:11:40.90\00:11:43.13
that the Bible shows
with the Old Testament,
00:11:43.16\00:11:45.33
people of God.
00:11:45.37\00:11:46.97
When they clamored for a king,
God allowed them to have one,
00:11:47.00\00:11:50.47
but He had a
hand in His choosing
00:11:50.51\00:11:53.41
in the choice of Saul
00:11:53.44\00:11:54.98
who was an upright man.
00:11:55.01\00:11:56.98
But He needed prayers
00:11:57.01\00:11:58.88
because even though
he was God's choice,
00:11:58.91\00:12:01.45
what he did
later in his kingship
00:12:01.48\00:12:03.69
was most deplorable
00:12:03.72\00:12:05.82
to use the term recently used.
00:12:05.85\00:12:08.26
We need to pray without ceasing
for ourselves, of course,
00:12:08.29\00:12:12.89
and for our leaders
00:12:12.93\00:12:14.26
that they act
wisely and righteously.
00:12:14.30\00:12:17.93
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:17.97\00:12:21.20