Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nicolas Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000357A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:27 This is the program bringing you 00:29 up-to-date news, and discussion on religious liberty events, 00:33 late breaking events in the US, and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, 00:40 and my guest on the program Dr. Nic Miller. 00:44 Let's really hit the ground running with this. 00:47 In the United States at the moment, 00:48 there's a new administration that, whatever it accomplishes, 00:53 I think is going to be a historic benchmark 00:56 because I've never seen a more activist administration 01:00 and president in my lifetime. 01:01 The first 10 days feels like the first 100 days 01:04 for everyone else in administration. 01:05 Things are happening in a great flurry. 01:06 And I think it's not by accident 01:09 because in the last few years 01:10 there have been some groundswell movements 01:13 in the US. 01:15 People have become disgusted with politics, it's normal. 01:17 They've become afraid of external threats. 01:21 They become, or there's been 01:24 a developing sense of impoverishment, 01:27 that we've lost to rich people elsewhere 01:30 or send our wealth there, our treasures. 01:32 I don't know who started that 01:34 but this idea of American treasure, 01:36 it sounds sort of the pirate-ish to me. 01:38 Yeah, siphoned off overseas. Yeah. 01:39 So, you know, no accident that we've got what we got, 01:42 but we didn't see it coming and now that it's here, 01:45 it's in your face every day. 01:46 What are we to make of this, this new administration? 01:48 Yeah, it's a great question. 01:50 Of course, as a church historian 01:51 from Andrews University, 01:52 you have to try to put it in some historical perspective. 01:55 Now, we could even talk about what's happening in our church, 01:58 it roughly parallels... 01:59 It's all connected, isn't it? 02:02 You know, here we are, 02:03 at the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation 02:07 and so the question is perhaps, 02:09 and in the previous program we talked about the linkage 02:12 between Martin Luther and Martin Luther King Jr., 02:15 and the rise of democracy 02:16 and human rights and minority rights, 02:18 but somebody, a skeptic could say, 02:21 "Well, what about, 02:23 isn't there a similar story to be told? 02:25 Can you tell the same story 02:27 from Martin Luther to Donald Trump?" 02:30 Right? 02:31 Donald Trump, does he claim to be a Christian? 02:33 I believe that he does. 02:36 If he says he is, he is in his mind. 02:39 He identifies as a Christian, he's a member of... 02:41 I mean it's up to God to decide each of us, 02:43 how good a Christian or a fellow human being... 02:45 Sure, sure. 02:46 But he, in fact during the campaign 02:49 he made a big point of that he was a Presbyterian, 02:52 unlike those Seventh-day Adventists, 02:54 who are they, he was trying to imply that... 02:57 Well, he made a comment about Adventists, 02:59 I didn't hear that it was in that context, was it? 03:01 It was in the context of when Dr. Ben Carson... 03:05 Yeah, he says "I don't know who is he?" 03:06 Was getting ahead of him in the polls 03:08 in some of the Northeastern states 03:09 and he said, "I'm not sure 03:11 about the Seventh-day Adventists 03:12 but the Presbyterians were right down the middle." 03:14 So he claims a strong Protestant heritage. 03:18 So is the, is the eventual rise of Protestantism 03:24 more clearly seen in Martin Luther King 03:26 and the civil rights movement and minority rights, 03:28 or is it more fully seen in Donald Trump 03:32 whose relationship, I'd suggest, 03:33 to civil rights and racial rights 03:36 is complex and contested at best? 03:39 And, you know, he's not known for his strong track record... 03:44 Well, I got to give him a bit of a leg up at the moment. 03:49 President Roosevelt. 03:53 The World War II President Roosevelt, 03:55 we have two of them of course, Theodore Roosevelt. 03:57 You know, he was a patrician of the first order. 04:00 But yet, I think he proved in his presidency 04:03 that he had a concern for the working man, 04:07 even Social Security 04:08 that's become quite dear to my heart 04:10 of recent years in anticipation was his, you know, 04:15 a product of his administration. 04:17 So just because Donald Trump 04:18 is a billionaire with a silver spoon life and... 04:22 No just. 04:23 Not a proven identification with the subcontractors 04:27 that worked on his hotel. 04:28 Intellectually or theoretically, we hope, 04:32 and it's possible that he's able 04:33 to identify with these issues. 04:36 Well, I would hope so, 04:37 but I'm not just judging him 04:39 based on his status or place in society. 04:41 You may remember that in running his campaign, 04:44 he went out of his way to talk about certain immigrant groups 04:48 and not in the most flattering terms. 04:50 He talked about the Mexicans, who are criminals and rapists 04:53 and some of them are good people 04:54 he managed to throw in. 04:56 But the point is, 04:57 a lot of people supported his campaign 04:59 who were overtly racist in ways that he wasn't, I acknowledge, 05:03 but he didn't go out of his way to separate himself from them 05:08 at least initially. 05:10 Who made the comment 05:11 that you get the government you deserve? 05:12 Well, there is something perhaps... 05:16 There's a statement like that. 05:18 And I don't know that it's unique to the US, 05:22 but for years politicians have been playing up 05:24 to the crowd. 05:26 Whatever they thought it took to be elected, 05:28 George Bush Sr., who we wish good health to him now, 05:32 he's old and not in good health. 05:34 But, you know, in his presidency 05:36 or running for election remember, 05:38 they ran the Willie Horton ad. 05:39 Right. So... 05:41 It doesn't come nastier than that. 05:43 But we never saw that 05:46 exemplified in his personal behavior 05:48 and in his governing. 05:49 So this is not new to American politics, 05:51 but you have to say and I'm not just 05:53 we're dwelling here on the race issue 05:54 but what about other minority issues. 05:56 So it's clear... 05:58 Now what is clear, what I think is very clear and shocking, 06:01 is all these tendencies and things that you see now 06:03 and then, they were like on steroids 06:05 in the Trump campaign and you mentioned the... 06:08 Well, reinstitute water boarding and words... 06:10 Yeah, you remember, Ben Carson ran for president, 06:13 was doing quite well early on, 06:14 I think a little better than Trump at one point. 06:17 And Trump unloaded on him and later on they joined forces 06:23 and I can remember on one TV show, 06:24 they said to Carson, 06:26 "How come you can support him, 06:28 he called you a child molester?" 06:30 And he said, "Oh, it's just politics." 06:33 I don't know but I mean that's how bad it got. 06:35 I'm glad brother Carson... 06:36 And he was willing to let bygones be bygones. 06:38 Can be very forgiving. 06:39 But I think we have to acknowledge 06:41 that whatever Donald Trump ran on, 06:42 he didn't run on a robust platform 06:44 of minority rights, right? 06:46 In fact to the contrary, he said, "I'm going to punish, 06:49 I'm gonna kill the wives and children of terrorists, 06:53 I'm going to..." 06:54 Go after their family... 06:55 It was a dismantling of constitutional protection. 06:57 I wish that was an original idea. 06:59 Unfortunately, the state of Israel 07:02 has said similar things recently. 07:04 The question is, is this a return to America's, 07:09 President Trump has talked about make America great again, 07:12 and I think that's all a slogan 07:14 that we could actually get behind. 07:15 Who doesn't want to make America great, 07:17 but the question becomes 07:19 how are we defining what greatness is? 07:21 Absolutely. 07:22 And as someone else I think it was Hillary said, 07:24 "Who says we're not great anymore?" 07:26 you know. 07:27 Well, you know. 07:28 And what occurred to me, no one said it, 07:31 is what defines great? 07:34 What my fear is that this all plays 07:37 on American exceptionalism 07:38 which I have deep troubles with 07:40 because it's a theological misunderstanding. 07:43 Well, it seems to be that he views American greatness 07:46 as financial power, military power, 07:50 probably some sort of social cohesiveness, 07:53 where sort of all together 07:55 thinking in somewhat similar ways 07:57 and he didn't go so far 07:59 as to identify it with a particular race. 08:02 Though there were some of his supporters that did, 08:04 but he distanced himself from that. 08:06 But the question is, 08:07 is that truly what American's greatness lies on? 08:10 Or does it, is it financially, 08:12 and militarily and socially strong 08:15 because of some other things? 08:17 And I think you and I would think 08:18 that there are some other things behind it. 08:19 Well, I think any country can be great 08:22 in the scale of heaven, 08:23 if it has moral sensibility and executes justice 08:29 as it should be executed. 08:30 Well, 19th century historians, 08:33 and this was echoed by Ellen White, 08:35 one of our founders says that, 08:36 America's greatness lay on two pillars 08:39 and they termed these Republicanism. 08:43 It's a government that Lincoln put in. 08:44 And Protestantism. And Protestantism. 08:46 And Republicanism was a government of, by, 08:48 and for the people, a representative government 08:51 that worked with its checks and balances 08:53 with its transparency and its openness. 08:55 And Protestantism was the principle of conscience 09:00 that people should be protected in their freedom of conscience, 09:03 and in their more fundamental rights. 09:04 Religious freedoms 09:06 and separation of church and state. 09:07 Religious freedom, separation of church and state. 09:08 The question is, 09:10 is the American greatness that we're being called back 09:13 to a strengthening of those two principles? 09:17 Doesn't seem to me, does it? 09:19 In fact, it seems to be in some ways 09:21 undermining those two principles. 09:23 And it seems to me, 09:25 even though I've always been very uncomfortable, 09:27 it's comparing the United States 09:29 experiment with Rome. 09:33 In some ways, we're following the patent of the Republic 09:37 and it's... 09:39 Remember that Rome had a senate... 09:40 Yeah. 09:42 Democratic system 09:43 and how it devolved to a strongman 09:46 and then to Caesars... 09:47 Through an empire and to Caesars... 09:49 And then it went pretty bad. Dictators and accusant and... 09:53 Did the Senate go away? 09:55 And the clamor of the people and so on... 09:57 Did the Senate go away? No. 09:58 So the Senate continued to exist. 10:00 Yes. 10:01 But the in form, but the spirit 10:03 and substance of the Senate had long gone. 10:06 You know and this is a political statement, 10:08 but I hope not partisan, 10:10 but it just hurts me 10:12 when I hear the constant discussion 10:15 on the radio or television and so on. 10:17 That at the moment is that fever pitch, 10:19 that whichever party it is 'cause it varies, 10:22 they have to stack the Supreme Court 10:24 to get their view through. 10:26 With the great strength of the system 10:28 that in the United States we've lived under, 10:30 is it's a divided system, 10:33 that there's a check and a balance 10:35 and it's worked wonderfully. 10:37 It's kept the constitution alive. 10:40 And yet some people now think, well, 10:42 we will have the Supreme Court 10:43 to either reinvent the constitution 10:46 or others want it to be 10:49 applied in its narrower sense and, 10:51 you know, I read the constitution. 10:52 The constitution had two-thirds votes 10:54 and a person votes and nothing for women 10:57 and $5 penalty I think for a civil suit 11:01 and all the sort of craziness. 11:02 It's from its time, but, you know, 11:06 the beauty of the system was that it diffused power, 11:10 but yet the ultimate responsibility 11:12 came from the populace. 11:13 From the people. Yeah. 11:14 And we're drifting away from that. 11:17 Dangerously so I think, dangerously so. 11:19 Yeah, we see dangerously but, and we need... 11:23 Who said it, "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." 11:27 We need to... 11:28 Madison or Jefferson or maybe both, yes. 11:30 I'm sure they all thought it. 11:32 Well, you know, the problem with the Republic 11:35 is that it can only flourish 11:37 when they are an educated 11:39 and self-restraint or virtuous people. 11:41 One of the same guys said that. 11:44 Well, and Benjamin Franklin famously 11:47 when he was leaving the Constitutional Convention, 11:49 a woman called out to him, 11:50 you know, "What is it that you've brought us. 11:53 What have we got?" 11:55 And he said, "We've brought you a republic, 11:58 if you can keep it." 11:59 If you can keep it. 12:01 And the reason virtue is needed and education 12:06 is because its self-government, 12:08 and anyone who's raised teenagers 12:11 or children know that, 12:13 children aren't self-governing. 12:14 You have to give them. 12:15 We've seen that, you and I at the moment. 12:17 Guidelines and parameters, 12:19 but the idea is to create self-governing ability in them 12:23 but that requires knowledge, and it requires restraint. 12:27 And when people lose that sense of restraint, 12:29 they have to be governed by others. 12:32 And, yes, and unfortunately 12:34 that's occurred to some civil rules on occasion 12:37 and that leads to dictatorship and the demagoguery. 12:43 But, you know, we'll keep a positive viewpoint, 12:46 as we must at the moment, 12:48 but I think this 12:49 regardless of what this administration are doing, 12:53 there is underlying shifts in society and attitudes, 12:59 that I think are the most dangerous. 13:01 And I, regardless of whether 13:03 it was with either candidate elected this time. 13:06 I'd still be personally is worried about 13:07 what's bubbling up underneath. 13:09 Right. 13:10 We had several years of people maligning their government. 13:13 We've had several years of efforts to remove religion, 13:17 not just from government which I wanted from, 13:20 but remove it from the public sphere. 13:23 We've had outside threats, 13:25 which like Luther and the Reformation 13:27 destabilized the whole population. 13:29 So we're actually in an extremely 13:31 dynamic point of history. 13:33 So how does a Christian relate to all of this, 13:35 we'll talk about that after our break. 13:37 No, no, you jumped on me. |
Revised 2017-04-20