Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nicolas Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000356B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:07 Before the break if you remember 00:09 with Nic Miller, I was twisting your knots 00:13 on interpreting Martin Luther, not Martin Luther King 00:17 but Martin Luther to Martin Luther King. 00:20 And we were looking at the Civil Rights Movement. 00:22 But more than that what I want to pursue 00:24 is the principle of democracy 00:27 that we have today in the West and then in the United States 00:31 which I think we assume and perhaps it's correct 00:34 that this is biblical 00:37 and even a Protestant viewpoint. 00:39 Well, it's hard to say that 00:41 the Bible promotes explicitly a democracy. 00:46 But if you look at the Old Testament, 00:47 there is a growing body of scholarship here... 00:51 contemporary body of scholarship 00:52 that's looking at the 18th and 17th... 00:54 17th and 18th centuries. 00:56 And recognizing 00:58 that a lot of the people that were promoting 00:59 democracy were drawing from the Old Testament 01:03 in terms of seeing a separation of powers there. 01:07 The king was not meant to function 01:10 as a priest and vice versa, 01:12 the prophets were a separate group. 01:14 And then even God's not wanting there to be a king, 01:17 that there was a kind of a representative 01:20 form of government through the elders 01:22 overseen by judges and prophets. 01:25 And so, there's been more of an influence 01:27 from the scripture on modern democracy 01:30 than it's been acknowledged. 01:31 Let me throw another cat among the pigeons. 01:34 I agree with you, 01:35 but perhaps 01:37 the more biblical concept of democracy 01:41 or democratic system 01:42 is what the United States actually has, 01:44 a representative government 01:46 where the free will of the people 01:49 can be expressed through public actions 01:52 rather than what the Bible says, 01:54 "Elsewhere everyone did 01:56 what was set right in their own eyes." 01:57 Right, right. 01:58 And I know that the American framers 02:01 had a deep fear of sort of the will of the people 02:06 in the group run amuck. 02:07 They were not in favor of a pure democracy. 02:09 Okay. 02:10 They saw the weakness of democracy 02:14 was that a demagogue, 02:16 someone who appealed to the baser instincts 02:19 and desires of the people... 02:20 We don't have any of those today, do we? 02:22 ..could turn the people in the direction 02:24 that was actually against the Civitas. 02:27 And so they constructed, many people don't know this 02:29 but originally we did not vote for our president 02:34 or even the electors. 02:36 It was the state legislatures that would choose electors 02:40 and it would choose presidents. 02:41 Well, more radically from what people imagine 02:44 that they originally, 02:45 the US didn't even have parties. 02:47 Well, and in fact, the founding fathers 02:49 were opposed to parties because of the party spirit. 02:51 But there's a very interesting story to be told 02:54 about the rise of Martin Luther's thought, 02:56 the freedom of the priesthood of believers 03:01 and modern democracies. 03:03 It was once thought that, 03:05 you know, the colonial imperial powers 03:07 of the western democracies exported 03:11 that religion was used as a tool 03:13 of coercion and control. 03:15 But some scholarship has come out, 03:18 specifically an article by Robert Woodberry 03:21 in American Political Science journal 03:23 which has successfully demonstrated 03:26 that the growth of democracy 03:28 in something like 70 countries around the world 03:31 is directly and strongly correlated 03:34 with the presence and activity 03:36 of Protestant missionaries 03:39 from dissenting free church tradition. 03:41 So not all Protestants, if you believe 03:43 in the combination of church and state, 03:45 then the church really can't speak 03:47 with a prophetic voice. 03:48 But in these free church traditions, 03:50 the missionaries would come, 03:52 they believed in the priesthood of believers, 03:54 everybody needed to read and write, 03:56 so they can read the Bible and share the gospel. 03:58 They would educate the mass populous 04:01 as effectively as they could. 04:02 They would stand up against the abuses 04:05 of the imperial colonial governments. 04:07 And then they created a people with educational systems 04:12 that could form the institutions 04:14 of democratic society. 04:16 So it's a very... 04:18 published in a secular journal 04:20 but it's causing many historians 04:21 to rethink the relationship of Christianity, 04:24 Christian missionaries and... 04:25 Yeah, no, there's some truth in it. 04:27 And there's also, 04:28 we have to acknowledge historically this, 04:31 you know, there's a reaction 04:32 in many third world countries now 04:34 to the colonial era 04:35 and the proselytizing missionaries. 04:39 And I think from their perspectives, 04:41 they're correct because the missionaries did go 04:43 in calculatedly to replace 04:45 whatever belief system was there 04:47 with the truth about, of the gospel. 04:50 So, I don't think... 04:51 Did proselytize, there's no doubt about that. 04:53 Yeah, I don't think you can get away with that, 04:54 but, yeah, it's a good point. 04:56 I also think... 04:58 The missionaries gave them the tools 04:59 with which they could stand up and... 05:02 By my analysis of imperialism which I have never lived under 05:05 but we both come from the British system... 05:08 Yes. 05:09 But, you know, looking at the British system 05:11 which is relatively successful 05:13 in inculcating democratic principles 05:15 around the world, but not always a kind system. 05:18 I think the secret was that they delegated authority 05:22 to a whole level of functionaries 05:24 in the colonies. 05:25 And I think that came and you know them, 05:27 couldn't see what your reaction is. 05:29 I think it came, yes, 05:31 from the type of religion 05:34 that characterized the missionary of it 05:36 whether it was the confessing churches 05:39 or whatever. 05:40 I think it came from how they related 05:42 other human to other human being. 05:44 The Catholic endeavors in the new world 05:47 and that suffered 05:48 because they always saw 05:50 the indigenous peoples as almost subhuman. 05:53 And there was a coercion... 05:55 That's not a climate 05:56 to pass any authority on when they lived. 06:00 And it should be noted though that they would seem to be, 06:03 they are always Catholic priests 06:05 who were speaking and standing up 06:07 for the native appeals in these places. 06:09 Well, there's good people in the world 06:11 regardless of the system. 06:12 But I think the system wasn't set up 06:14 to empower them when the authorities lived. 06:19 This is true and that is why liberal democracies 06:21 generally arose in countries connected with Protestants. 06:24 So, I think even though the Protestant missions 06:27 in lot of the, certainly the British imperial world 06:31 were working to replace their culture, 06:34 and imperialism itself was not a structure 06:38 we are comfortable with today. 06:40 That because of the missionaries, 06:42 because of the mindset even of the imperial powers, 06:45 they saw these people, yes, to be subjugated 06:48 but they didn't see them as inferior 06:51 or necessarily another level of human being. 06:53 So, I think that was an easy pass off 06:55 which has to come from religion. 06:57 In the image of God, right? 06:58 And the priesthood of all believers 07:01 and that while your brother may be 07:03 less educated than you, 07:05 you can educate them 07:06 and bring them into this social equality. 07:07 Which brings us to Martin Luther. 07:09 I think that's the genius of Martin Luther. 07:11 He used religion to reemphasize 07:14 the black men as just as much a human being... 07:18 Martin Luther King Jr., yes. 07:20 The image of God and I think that's where... 07:22 And it seems self evident now 07:24 but I know it wasn't in the '50s and '60s. 07:26 That's right. That's right. 07:27 But I think that it should cause us 07:30 as evangelical Christians today 07:33 to see in the current need 07:36 for a greater racial equality a calling of the gospel. 07:41 We can't link up with all the activist groups 07:44 who have a wide range of issues that we may not agree with, 07:47 but I think as Christians we should be able to stand 07:49 in the tradition of Martin Luther 07:51 and Martin Luther King Jr., 07:53 for basic fairness and treatment 07:55 in our social criminal justice system, 07:58 our social welfare system, 08:01 because there is, even after we've... 08:03 I thought we had moved past explicit bias, 08:06 but with this recent political controversies we've had, 08:11 we have seen some of this explicit bias 08:13 come back. 08:14 But even apart from that 08:16 the implicit bias of our system, 08:18 studies have shown that we treat people 08:20 with different colored skin in different ways. 08:22 And I think, as Christians we have a, 08:25 we have a duty to look at our own hearts 08:27 and to see what unconscious bias 08:29 might lie there to bring it to light 08:32 and to prayerfully work our way away from it 08:35 to a greater unity 08:37 and inclusiveness in the body of Christ. 08:39 Good. 08:40 So the reformation is still with us. 08:42 Well, I think that the principles of it 08:44 once we understand it. 08:45 I'm trying to light it how do we... 08:47 Where do we go with this? 08:48 Because, you know, on the simplest historic level, 08:52 you know, I can see echoes of reformation 08:56 but it's really being negated or turned back in many ways. 09:01 Theologically it's been denied, 09:06 even, 09:08 maybe you read different stuff than I read, 09:09 but a lot of the stuff online at least is maligning 09:13 the memory of Martin Luther 09:14 and all that the reformation still... 09:15 Well, and it's also... 09:17 We are trying him as bigoted, as violent and so on. 09:19 Well, in its social political matters, 09:21 I mean, he did have trouble 09:23 with the things that he wrote about the Jews 09:25 and some other minority groups. 09:26 But his larger, the vision of his principles... 09:30 And one thing I'll say, it's his defense... 09:31 Bigger than who he was. 09:32 Remember, and I'll give the benefit 09:36 that the Catholic Church are now trying to reap. 09:40 When he stood up or nailed on the door in Wittenberg, 09:44 he was a Catholic priest. 09:45 Yes, he was. That was his context. 09:48 So, as he erupted 09:50 and had a great truth about how we look at the Bible 09:53 and a sense of, you know, 09:54 wanting to shake off his shackles his shackles 09:56 and emphasize freedom which I believe 09:58 came from another as well another threat of humanism. 10:01 But as he did that, 10:03 he was still captive to a lot of the biases 10:06 of the religio-political world and anti-Semitism 10:10 was big time. 10:12 You know, he's been blamed purely 10:14 for what happened in Germany 10:16 but I would connect it to with the religious viewpoint 10:19 that antedated him by hundreds of years. 10:21 Yes. Yes. 10:22 There was an ongoing bigotry that he was his own person. 10:26 More than even a bigotry, it was a demonization, 10:29 theological demonization of whole people. 10:32 Yes, we have to acknowledge that. 10:34 It didn't come to a good end but... 10:35 But the principles of Protestantism 10:37 eventually undid that would be my argument. 10:39 Absolutely. 10:41 And as we know, 10:42 Protestantism moved on from Martin Luther. 10:44 Well, and, 10:46 you are saying challenges to Protestantism today, 10:48 it's not just the challenges to the memory of Martin Luther, 10:51 it's also a challenge to the fundamental principles. 10:54 When we say that someone of a different ethnicity, 10:58 a different religious group, if they are Muslim, 11:00 they are not deserving of the basic human rights 11:04 and dignities that we have as Americans, 11:06 that is a rejection, 11:08 a repudiation of this notion of the image of God in all. 11:11 Absolutely, yeah. 11:13 Even though at different times in Protestant history, 11:15 similar things were said 11:17 but it was a moving awareness, wasn't it? 11:20 That's right. 11:21 And, you know, I'm quite convinced 11:23 from my study of American history, 11:25 that it's the Protestant nature 11:27 that really was the crucible that all of this came out of. 11:31 So I think it's fair to draw a link 11:33 between Martin Luther 11:34 and Martin Luther King Jr. 11:37 The movement that motivated both men 11:39 were at their heart, religious, 11:41 a vision of humanity made in the image of God, 11:45 and then that image of God being played out 11:48 in the social 11:50 and political systems of the day. 11:51 As Christians we have much to appreciate 11:54 and be inspired by this wonderful legacy. 11:58 In celebrating 500 years 12:00 since the Protestant Reformation, 12:02 it's worth bringing it forward to what it means to us today. 12:07 You could be forgiven for thinking 12:09 that the comments made a few months ago 12:12 by a certain Tony Palmer 12:15 that the Reformation is over might be true today. 12:19 Some people think it's over, 12:21 and it's true that the Lutheran World Federation 12:24 have come to sort of an understanding 12:27 with the Church of Rome. 12:28 And friendship is fine but revisionism is never good. 12:33 But in reality, the principles of the Reformation 12:36 suffuse our public life, 12:38 the way that United States government 12:40 in particular was set up was not religious 12:42 but it was mightily colored by the sentiments 12:45 and the principles that guided individual contact, 12:49 that conduct that came from the Reformation. 12:53 And toady, as we try to be true to those principles, 12:57 I think an adherence to the Word of God. 13:00 How we find it and interpret it by our deep Bible study, 13:04 and the principle of standing up 13:06 for truth against injustice 13:09 'cause there's a social justice element. 13:12 And for doctrinal truth this is vital 13:15 and is necessary in our day as it ever was in Luther, 13:19 Hus's, or Zwinglis, or any of the other reformers. 13:23 Today is the acceptable day, now is the acceptable hour. 13:29 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-04-13