Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nicolas Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000356A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is the program bringing you 00:30 discussion, analysis, and up-to-date information 00:34 on what is the most important topic today, 00:36 religious liberty. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:41 And my guest on this program is Dr. Nic Miller. 00:47 I don't have enough time to give you 00:48 a full introduction but a lawyer, 00:51 a history professor at Andrews University, 00:53 an author. 00:55 We might talk about one of your books, 00:57 the more recent book soon. 00:59 But let's talk about The Reformation 01:01 and what effects it has had and is having 01:04 on maybe civil rights and secular rights today. 01:09 In the modern world, 01:11 so previously we've talked about Martin Luther 01:14 and the 95 Theses, to modern religious freedom. 01:17 And there is a pathway to be traced there. 01:19 Well, and this is the 500th anniversary, so... 01:21 500th anniversary, yeah. 01:23 It's gonna be a lot of discussion 01:24 in the next few months about 01:26 the significance of Martin Luther, 01:27 but he's not just 01:29 an ancient historical figure, is he? 01:30 No, he's had a continuing influence 01:32 in the West, and in some ways, 01:34 even increasing as time passes. 01:37 A question that you might ask is, 01:40 modern civil rights in America 01:42 owe a lot to Martin Luther's namesake, 01:45 Martin Luther King Jr. 01:48 who gave a very famous speech 01:52 450 years after 1517. 01:56 Are you talking about the "I have a Dream" speech? 01:57 Well, it wasn't the "I have a Dream" speech, 01:59 that's even more famous. 02:00 He gave many more speeches. 02:02 But he gave one on actually the year, 02:05 the 450th anniversary year, 02:07 where he broadened his working for civil rights beyond race 02:13 to include all races and classes. 02:16 And he made a famous speech condemning 02:19 the Vietnam War 02:21 which was controversial at the time. 02:22 I've read that speech, yeah. 02:23 And yet he did it because he felt 02:25 that there was a brotherhood of mankind 02:27 that included not just blacks 02:29 but anyone who is being oppressed anywhere, 02:31 including the Vietnamese. 02:33 And he spoke, and in some ways, 02:35 this is what ties him to Martin Luther, 02:38 not just he's a namesake, 02:40 he comes in a similar tradition, 02:41 he's a Protestant with Baptist roots. 02:44 So he comes out of this importance of the individual 02:47 which I think is what drives. 02:49 He talks about humans being made 02:50 in the image of God. 02:52 But that all humans, 02:54 not just Americans, 02:55 not just American blacks and whites, 02:57 but those overseas, 02:59 and he calls into, 03:02 calls to account 03:04 the American use of corporate and military power 03:08 to oppress people overseas. 03:10 And he says, "This can't stand as a Protestant." 03:13 And I think it's, as we discussed earlier, 03:16 Martin Luther gained the world's attention 03:18 not just because of his spiritual beliefs 03:20 but his willingness to stand up 03:21 against the power structure of his day. 03:24 Very importantly, 03:26 and he didn't just copy Martin Luther, 03:28 he copied Gandhi in non-violence. 03:32 And in some ways, 03:33 then it became a little like Martin Luther 03:37 where violence erupted around him 03:39 and he backed off from it. 03:40 Remember, the Civil Rights Movement, 03:42 it was toying with the violent reaction often. 03:45 The Civil Rights Movement was predicated, 03:48 both Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. 03:51 were significantly influenced 03:52 by Christ's Sermon on the Mount, right? 03:54 Even Gandhi "Turn the other cheek". 03:57 And it was the theory of the Civil Rights Movement 04:01 that as you displayed kindness 04:04 and love in the face of violence 04:07 that those looking on would see 04:10 which was the superior pathway 04:12 and that they would respond accordingly. 04:14 And therefore, 04:16 this pathway of civil disobedience 04:20 but non-violence 04:23 could defeat a violent enemy. 04:26 And it certainly succeeded in both cases. 04:28 Although the point's being made about Gandhi, 04:30 I don't remember reading it about the civil rights era. 04:35 The British imperial power was cruel in turn, 04:41 in its own, you know, different times 04:44 but it wasn't, say like, the Nazis and the Jews, 04:48 you know, it wouldn't have mattered 04:49 what the Jews did to Nazis, 04:51 "We're gonna destroy them, 04:52 they rolled the tanks over them regardless." 04:55 But I think the best thing what you're saying 04:57 with both Martin Luther King and Martin Luther, 05:00 I'm sorry, Martin Luther King and Gandhi, 05:04 they were hoping to bring out 05:05 the better nature of their opponents. 05:07 You seem to, "Hey, there needs to be a conscience 05:10 that can be awakened 05:12 for your act of civil disobedience, 05:17 non-violent civil disobedience 05:18 to be appreciated and respected." 05:20 Yeah. 05:22 So where are we today? 05:24 The Civil Rights Movement succeeded, fine. 05:27 Where do we go now? 05:29 Well, this is the question though, isn't it? 05:30 I mean, the Civil Rights Movement, 05:33 it certainly has brought improvement. 05:36 We've just finished two terms of our first black president, 05:40 at least a half black president 05:42 which would have been unthinkable. 05:44 It was progressed, and yet it seemed to me 05:46 that we backpedaled a bit during his presidency. 05:49 So what happened? So this is a good question. 05:51 We seem to have fallen back into greater levels of violence 05:55 against ethnic minorities, 05:57 against the black community in particular, unrest, 06:00 the demonstrations, 06:02 The Black Lives Matter movement, 06:04 how do Christians relate now 06:06 to this new outbreak of ethnic tensions. 06:09 So where do we go? 06:11 I do think that, I mean, 06:14 we're gonna say the Trump administration 06:15 but I'm not really down on Trump yet. 06:17 It's not right to criticize a leader 06:20 just because they stand in for all this. 06:24 Now the Civil Rights Movement is behind us 06:26 but it brought us for better or worse 06:30 into the gay rights movement, it's brought us... 06:35 Well, not brought us, 06:37 but we're now to a point 06:38 where the civil rights is rolling backwards 06:40 or at least the sensibilities that were encouraged. 06:43 And we're in the 500th anniversary 06:46 of the Reformation. 06:47 So can we approach, 06:50 can Christians approach this with the non-violent approach, 06:53 or are we sort of stuck in a rut? 06:56 Well, I think I'd like to make a distinction 06:58 between the racial Civil Rights Movement 07:03 which had its roots deep in Protestant thought 07:05 to Martin Luther King Jr. 07:06 and the black churches had an understanding. 07:10 Martin Luther King in his letter 07:11 from the Birmingham jail 07:13 tapped into and referred 07:15 to the long line of natural law, 07:17 natural morality, tradition in Christian thought. 07:20 And use this to build an argument 07:22 that was based on religious foundations, 07:25 about the nature of men and the nature of equality. 07:29 The LGBT gay rights movement, frankly, 07:32 comes from a different stream of thought. 07:34 I think it does, but I linked up 07:36 because other people have thought 07:37 that it's interlinked. 07:39 In people's minds, there's a linkage. 07:41 I agree with that 07:42 but if you look at the ideological roots of it, 07:45 the two are actually opposite. 07:47 The racial civil rights movement 07:49 is making arguments on natural morality 07:52 where as the LGBT movement 07:54 is effectively rejecting natural morality 07:57 and imposing a human creates... 07:59 You know, in Liberty magazine, 08:00 I got into trouble with some of our peers 08:03 because they didn't like that Liberty was challenging 08:06 the assumption that the gay movement 08:09 was a Civil Rights Movement. 08:11 And I don't think it was. It should have been. 08:14 They made a linkage 08:15 but, you know, I think it's insulting 08:17 to people of an ethnic identity 08:21 that we're penalized purely because of their ethnicity. 08:24 And here's a moral opposition that, at least a large group 08:30 of that category have decided this is how they will behave 08:34 and they wanted an acceptance from it. 08:35 That's a whole different thing. 08:36 So there's a difference between an identity 08:39 and a series of moral choices that will refer to... 08:41 Right, and that's another way of saying 08:43 what you were saying. 08:44 Yes, I think that's right. But, you know, yeah. 08:47 I believe Martin Luther has to be relevant today. 08:49 I mean, not has to be, is relevant today, 08:52 but yet how do we uncover him 08:54 because as we said in another program... 09:00 the Lutherans have disavowed him in essence, 09:04 said that his original dispute with Rome was... 09:07 No longer relevant today. No longer relevant. 09:09 We all accept justification with faith. 09:11 Right. 09:12 So you and I as Adventist Protestants 09:17 think that he was on to something 09:18 but that's not what the world around us sees. 09:21 And we're going toward the end of this year, 09:24 we'll see the Pope of Rome 09:25 celebrating Luther's reformation 09:28 in Scandinavia somewhere. 09:30 So they've sort of brought him out. 09:32 Trying to bring him back into the full... 09:33 So we need to uncover 09:35 what was really going on with Martin Luther. 09:38 It must be little bit different 09:40 than just a gentleman's self-awareness, 09:44 just an objection to the abuses of the church 09:47 which were real, and some have been changed, 09:51 some have been apologized for. 09:53 I don't think the deep theological 09:55 differences have been resolved, 09:58 but this doesn't seem 09:59 to be a big present-day argument. 10:02 But what I think you're on to is we need to emphasize 10:05 Martin Luther's linkage 10:07 to the rights and dignity of man 10:11 as creatures of a creator God. 10:12 And that is with us still. 10:15 And I think what Martin Luther did 10:18 was that he brought a fundamental rearrangement 10:20 between the linkage, between the individual, 10:24 the church and the state, and God. 10:27 And he put that individual directly in touch with God 10:30 through prayer and Bible study, 10:32 and not having those things mediated 10:35 through the church and the state. 10:36 The church and the state are important, 10:38 they're important institutions to support the individual. 10:41 But as soon as you suggest that those institutions 10:45 play a role in determining 10:47 what is truth for the individual. 10:49 And I think that's what we have to fear most in our society 10:54 in our politics right now is that, 10:58 we are facing a time 11:00 when we are going to rely 11:02 more and more on government, governmental institutions, 11:05 the rise of populism, the majority, 11:08 and a dismissing of minority rights, 11:11 and the image of God in individuals 11:14 of whatever creed and color and religion they are. 11:17 Okay. 11:18 What I'd like to talk with you 11:20 in this relation you reminded me, 11:21 Martin Luther spoke of the two kingdoms. 11:24 Yes, he did. 11:26 And I read quite a bit of it recently 11:27 and it can be a little bit problematic 11:32 if you follow his line of reasoning too far. 11:34 And yet on the face of it, I like what he was saying. 11:37 Well, I think the two kingdoms 11:38 is an acknowledgement essentially 11:40 of the roots of American church state separationism, 11:43 you know, he said... 11:45 You think you could trace our separationism today 11:49 from Martin Luther? 11:50 To Martin Luther's two kingdoms. 11:51 He starts off and in fact, 11:54 he begins to develop it that way. 11:55 And then, you've mentioned the Peasant's Revolt 11:57 and the Revolution. 11:59 And he got cold feet and backed away from it 12:02 because he saw that perhaps society 12:04 was a fragile thing and it would dissolve. 12:07 But early on, his view of the two kingdoms 12:10 was such that he said that the magistrate 12:12 should not have oversight over what is heresy, right? 12:17 This is something for the church to persuade, 12:19 not for the legislature to mandate. 12:23 Interesting, interesting. So the two kingdoms, you know. 12:25 Let's take a break and we will be back shortly. |
Revised 2017-04-13