Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Nick Miller,
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we were talking
about the Johnson,
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I used the term,
was it an amendment?
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What was the term
of the Johnson rule?
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Johnson Bill or
Johnson Act, I think.
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Johnson Act, I think, yeah,
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which restricted
the ability of churches
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to act directly in a
nakedly political manner.
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And I think we agreed that
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there were good reasons for that
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and security for
both the state and church.
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But this question of
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how publicly religious views
should be held and promoted
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is very vibrant at the moment.
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In another context
on this gay marriage
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and gay rights issue.
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And, in fact, our
new vice president
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pins that was
his last major act.
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Governor of Indiana.
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Governor of Indiana
defended, hit the headlines,
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he actually signed
into, vote for at one point,
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a referral bill
that had as a writer,
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an incredible authorization
for people of faith
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to refuse service of cakes,
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and wedding photos,
and the whole thing.
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Right.
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And then as I
remember he had to back down.
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Yes.
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And it's probably gonna be
the last of the state refers
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for a long time.
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Well, now that there's
been a new administration though
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and Mike Pence is
now the Vice-President,
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other winds could blow.
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Well, that would
have to be a wind,
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because the federal
government can't easily mandate
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to the states too.
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No, but a lot of
states are wanting to do it.
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Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, you're right.
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It changed the
dynamic, there's no question.
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But, you know,
this is a bigger issue.
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You and I may disagree on it.
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Should a
Christian expect that a law
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will empower them to treat
a non-believer differently,
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if they are running a business
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or even just any set
of public interchange?
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So let me ask a
slightly different question.
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Should the law protect
a Christian businessman
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in conducting their business
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according to
their moral convictions?
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Let me throw another one at you.
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We'll find out
who's interviewing who.
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But, you know, I'm old enough
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when I first came
to the US in 1966,
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because the civil
rights thing was blossoming.
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We drove down south a few times
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and I saw the signs on
restaurants and other places.
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Now I forget what the words...
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No colors allowed? It's colors.
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I was fishing for the
word. No colors, no Jews.
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No Jews, really? Wow.
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Yup, and the other day...
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My wife is
Hispanic from Guatemala
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and her brother was
visiting from Guatemala,
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but he studied in Texas,
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and he told me how the police
ejected him from a restaurant
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that signed no Mexicans either.
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He's not Mexican but,
you know, was all Spanish...
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It was a broad
basis of discrimination.
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Now I've studied enough to know
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those were not
just bigoted statements,
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which they were.
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Yeah. They were bigoted.
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But there was a
theology that lay behind it
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and good
Christian people felt that
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this was their view that
was being empowered by law.
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Right.
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So it was an erroneous theology
which has never been widely
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held in the church.
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Well, is it erroneous?
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It arose in particular societies
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that were bigoted to begin with.
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The south...
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We are all
bigoted to begin with.
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Well, we know
that's the faith statement,
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it's the faith statement.
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But there are
historians have recognized
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that the use of the Bible
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to defend racial
distinctions arose in the south
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long after
slavery was implemented.
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It was a new argument to
make against the moral arguments
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that were being
made against them.
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Now, of course, I'm
against these sorts of
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improper uses of theology
to defend discrimination,
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but let me tell you
how they are different.
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But they are not
putting signs up now.
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I wouldn't feel
too good, I mean,
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I'm not a part of
those communities,
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but still just the effect on me,
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if I went to a cake shop
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and I see, "We
do not serve gays."
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Well, no. Okay, that
would be inappropriate.
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But that's what they wanted.
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No, that's not what they wanted.
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They don't want the sign,
but they want to act that way.
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No, this is an
important distinction.
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None of the cases I
know involve discrimination
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against gays.
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In fact, in almost
all, many of the cases...
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Oh, I know, it's provocation
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where they go
there and try to...
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No, no, no, no,
this is the difference
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between distinction,
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I'm sorry, between
identity and between moral act.
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So in the cases, the race cases,
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people are being turned down
just because of their identity.
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Who they are?
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But in these issues
relating to same sex marriage,
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in many instances,
the gay individuals
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are long time customers
of the florist or the bakery.
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They are being served,
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the owners know that
these persons are gay,
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they don't have a
problem with serving them,
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selling them cakes,
or cupcakes, or whatever.
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But what happens is,
it's not about identity,
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it's about moral choices.
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So when that gay
person decides to choose
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to enter into a lifelong
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or some sort of
same sex relationship
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and then wants
to celebrate that,
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that is taking a
moral standing position
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that they then want to
involve the business owner in,
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in promoting in some way.
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So I think it's quite
a different thing to say,
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"I'm discriminating against
someone based on who they are,
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their status."
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And I'm against that.
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You know, if there was
a Seventh-day Adventist
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diner of a fast food,
semi-fast food restaurant
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that caters for parties.
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Yeah.
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Are they going to
provide food at a beer party
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where there's beer,
dancing, and probably more.
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So they may not
choose to, right?
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And that would be their
moral choice to be able to.
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They can say, I
don't like your party,
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I'm not gonna cater to it.
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And let's make it as a
professional, as a lawyer,
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if I am
approached by a pornographer,
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Playboy Magazine
or some such outfit,
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and they want me
to take their case,
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I have the ability to say,
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"No, I don't morally
agree with your production
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and I'm gonna chose not to."
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Now if I can do that,
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and I'm essentially protected
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under my legal
ethics and standards,
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I have the right to do that.
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Why is it that a
blue collar worker
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doesn't have the
same moral protection?
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And think about the Christians
in the early Roman Empire.
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You have thrown another spanner
'cause I forgotten that lawyers
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and some other professionals
would act that way.
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We make moral distinctions
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about the clients we will serve.
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And if you think about
the early Roman Empire,
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Christians drew the line
and sometimes lost their lives
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not for doing some
obviously immoral act,
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but for refusing to
burn a pinch of incense
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to the emperors, it
was highly symbolic.
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It was hardly crossing
the line on some issues.
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They wouldn't incite
the pledge of allegiance.
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And so these persons,
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these Christian
florists or bakers are saying,
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"If I make a cake with a
wedding with two men on it
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and provide it to
the services there,
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I'm endorsing, I'm supporting
by my behavior this act
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which I morally disagree with."
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I actually see
the moral quandary,
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but I do believe that
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there are many
subtle interactions in life
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where you apply
your moral viewpoint
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and you might pay up a penalty.
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You might lose business,
generally or specifically.
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You may lose business,
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but what's happened
in many instances is that
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they are then sued.
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Well, we're in the developing
phase of this new right.
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Some businesses
have been closed down.
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I would have never
granted it necessarily, but...
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A business in Washington
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for refusing to bake a cake.
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What's going on is
these are provocations
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that flush out a bad attitude.
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Well, let me ask you this.
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But, you know, if you run
a business, it seems to me,
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you can guarantee that
through that door will come
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wife beaters,
drug dealers, you know,
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and people that
are embezzling at work.
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You don't know, you
can't make that moral judgment,
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but if here's
something very obvious
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sort of in your face thing,
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does that make them a
worst sinner than the others?
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If you gonna disallow people
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based on your
distaste for their lifestyle,
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you shouldn't be
running a public business.
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Well, let me ask you this.
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If there was an
African-American baker
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and the local KKK high
wizard came in and said,
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"We want a cake
saying white supremacy
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with a burning cross on it,
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should the black
baker have to bake it?
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Well, I don't know,
because that's what seems to be
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he's running foul some laws.
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What? No, he can say that.
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There is no law that
prevents you from expressing
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inappropriate racial views.
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So if the answer
to this one is no,
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the black baker should
be able to turn it down,
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then why can't the
Christian turn down a cake
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that he is morally opposed to?
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I believe in the real world.
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You made a very
interesting point.
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In the real world
these things sort them out
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because something is personal
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or becoming more
personal like a customized cake
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and that or your
wedding pictures.
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You go to someone that
you're sympathetic with, right?
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Well, you think so.
What's happen normally...
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These days
people are seeking out,
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ones with religious convictions
and put them out to trial.
00:09:27.96\00:09:29.80
Well, they are seeking
them out to prove a point.
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Right.
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But once the thing is settled,
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I don't think this
will come up very much.
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Well, I hope not.
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I mean, I think the point is
00:09:38.57\00:09:39.91
there's usually a
number of different options
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for cakes and flowers,
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and it's not as
though if the Christian one
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doesn't provide it,
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they are not
going to have a wedding,
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they are not
gonna have access to it.
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They want to
force these individuals
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to approve and
support their moral choices.
00:09:51.59\00:09:54.76
And in a moral question,
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and morally, the other
side of it is exactly that.
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Right.
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And it's very
abusive of peoples'
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Christian sensibilities.
00:10:02.50\00:10:03.83
And if we're committed to
morally pluralistic society,
00:10:03.87\00:10:07.54
then we need to preserve
the ability of individuals.
00:10:07.57\00:10:11.11
That's why, in fact,
00:10:11.14\00:10:13.88
we agree that the gay
community should have the right
00:10:13.91\00:10:16.85
to make the
moral choices they do.
00:10:16.88\00:10:18.61
But then I should have the right
00:10:18.65\00:10:20.22
to make the moral
choices I am convicted of.
00:10:20.25\00:10:22.08
But where they
started, at least in my mind,
00:10:22.12\00:10:24.85
it didn't start
with the gay thing,
00:10:24.89\00:10:27.56
it started with
contraception, and chemists,
00:10:27.59\00:10:31.56
and others
filling prescriptions,
00:10:31.59\00:10:34.20
and I didn't like that either.
00:10:34.23\00:10:35.80
Here you don't agree
with their whole deal,
00:10:35.83\00:10:38.53
but it could make a huge
difference in someone's life
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whether they could get
something over-the-counter
00:10:41.20\00:10:43.27
in this chemist
or they go elsewhere
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if it's available
somewhere else in town.
00:10:45.17\00:10:46.71
But that's not a
convenient thing at all.
00:10:46.74\00:10:49.31
You've affected other
people's lives negatively
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just because you have
moral squeamishness about it.
00:10:52.58\00:10:57.72
But that was the state law.
00:10:57.75\00:10:59.12
I mean, in other
words, the Supreme Court case
00:10:59.15\00:11:04.29
you're alluding to
was about some states
00:11:04.33\00:11:06.90
forbid the sale
of birth control.
00:11:06.93\00:11:09.00
And I think that was...
00:11:09.03\00:11:10.37
Supposedly there
were moral objections
00:11:10.40\00:11:12.13
where the things would
be denied to other people.
00:11:12.17\00:11:13.84
Yeah, well, the state
has a complicated role
00:11:13.87\00:11:17.21
in trying to preserve morality,
00:11:17.24\00:11:19.44
but doing it in a
way that doesn't infringe
00:11:19.47\00:11:21.94
on individual believer's
freedom of conscience.
00:11:21.98\00:11:25.45
We need to learn how to stand up
00:11:25.48\00:11:26.92
for these issues as
both Christian citizens
00:11:26.95\00:11:30.62
and citizens of
the kingdom of heaven.
00:11:30.65\00:11:34.19
Quite a few years ago, I
remember running an article
00:11:34.22\00:11:36.79
in Liberty Magazine
by Dr. D. James Kennedy,
00:11:36.83\00:11:40.73
who had a TV
program out of Coral Gables
00:11:40.76\00:11:43.30
and quite some
national exposure.
00:11:43.33\00:11:46.30
In fact, he was to the fore
00:11:46.33\00:11:48.34
and pushing for a
piece of legislation
00:11:48.37\00:11:50.31
then known as the Jones Bill,
00:11:50.34\00:11:53.17
and as Dr. Kennedy said,
00:11:53.21\00:11:55.51
"The Jones Bill
would free the churches
00:11:55.54\00:11:58.38
to be a part of the community
and a part of public life."
00:11:58.41\00:12:01.78
Well, let me free them by
giving them political power.
00:12:01.82\00:12:04.69
I'm not so sure that,
00:12:04.72\00:12:06.69
that is the path to the
best religious expression,
00:12:06.72\00:12:10.33
because in
reality, as Jesus said,
00:12:10.36\00:12:12.49
"If the Son sets you
free, you are free indeed."
00:12:12.53\00:12:15.26
And the freedom
that we want to encourage
00:12:15.30\00:12:18.40
should bubble over
from a spiritual life
00:12:18.43\00:12:20.94
and an indwelling hope in Christ
00:12:20.97\00:12:23.84
that is not
able to be contained.
00:12:23.87\00:12:26.78
That spiritual revival
doesn't need a Jones Bill.
00:12:26.81\00:12:32.28
It doesn't need the repudiation
of the Johnson directives.
00:12:32.31\00:12:37.59
It needs the power of the spirit
00:12:37.62\00:12:39.62
lived out in the
life and in the community.
00:12:39.65\00:12:42.72
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:42.76\00:12:45.49