Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nicolas Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000355A
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00:25 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:27 This is a program bringing you discussion, 00:29 analysis, up-to-date information, 00:31 and all the news that you need to know, 00:34 and the insights 00:35 you need to know on religious liberty. 00:37 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, 00:40 and my guest on the program, Nic Miller lawyer, 00:45 professor of history at Andrews University, author. 00:48 Yes. 00:50 Maybe it's time to show your book, 00:51 on The Reformation. 00:53 I want everyone to show that "Reformation and the Remnant", 00:55 500 years of Protestant Reformation. 00:59 As a lawyer, I know particularly, 01:01 you're in tune with the lot of the current developments 01:04 on civil and religious liberty. 01:06 Something that's got people a little bit nervous, 01:09 and others maybe even excited, 01:12 the idea that the Johnson Amendment, 01:16 I think it was called, 01:17 a prohibition on church 01:20 political activity maybe removed. 01:23 And a few years ago, 01:24 there was an active intention to change 01:27 this with the Jones Amendment, it was called, 01:29 the Johnson rule, I think, 01:31 but the Jones Amendment 01:33 which would have made churches political action groups. 01:36 So it's all 501c3 is right, 01:40 it doesn't just single out churches 01:42 but it includes churches under this umbrella. 01:43 Well, but the intention was to, as D. James Kennedy 01:46 who I interviewed before he died, 01:48 he says, "Unbind the churches." 01:50 So we can speak 01:51 to political matters more directly. 01:53 Well, become political... 01:54 No, it was never a couched language, 01:57 they wanted the churches to be able to raise 01:59 unlimited political funds 02:01 to support parties and candidates directly. 02:04 So we should let our viewers know the background 02:09 as to what it does and doesn't do. 02:10 So as things under the Johnson Amendment 02:13 which was passed 02:14 in the first half of the 20th century, 02:16 I'm forgetting the exact year... 02:18 During the Johnson era. 02:19 Johnson era. 02:21 It said that the churches could not 02:24 endorse candidates for public office 02:27 and you could only do 02:28 a minimal amount of issue promotion. 02:30 So, as a church, 02:32 you can talk about abortion or the environment, 02:35 but it has to be 02:37 a small percentage of your activity. 02:39 So you're not forbidden 02:40 from talking to political issues 02:42 but the red line is 02:44 that you're not supposed to cross 02:45 is actually endorsing or promoting candidates 02:48 for public office. 02:50 Well, and this is actually 02:52 something that most churches avoided 02:54 even before the Johnson Amendment, right? 02:57 I mean, our church, the Adventist Church typically 03:00 was told not to take stands 03:02 on parties and political issues. 03:03 Well, the way I'll card on this, 03:05 and I think it's why 03:06 it was a context of the Johnson Act anyway, 03:10 was the Civil Rights movement, 03:13 from its beginning involved direct church action 03:16 and church leadership, 03:17 and they were overtly political. 03:20 That did happen in the 1950s and '60s, 03:24 the foundations of the Civil Rights Movement 03:27 with the African-American churches 03:29 and many... 03:31 Martin Luther King Jr., of course, 03:32 a pastor in his own right, 03:35 but it was an issue 03:37 and so they didn't get in trouble for the issue 03:38 but they were clearly restrained from... 03:40 You know, I'm not criticizing the Civil Rights Movement. 03:42 I know. 03:43 I mean, I think the central role 03:45 of the Southern Baptist was vital. 03:47 I mean, it gave the moral high ground 03:49 and it gave them an organizational base. 03:51 Oh, the Southern Baptist weren't that involved with it, 03:54 except for the Baptists who were blacks in the South. 03:56 But there were Southern Baptists. 03:58 With those Baptists, yeah. 03:59 Yeah, things have changed, 04:00 you know, the shifting attitude. 04:02 The Southern Baptist Convention has now come out very strongly 04:05 in favor of and apologized for its discrimination but... 04:08 Yeah, it's a good qualifier. 04:11 Martin Lither King was from the Baptist tradition. 04:14 In the south, correct. Yeah. 04:17 But at that time, I think it was good. 04:20 And in a way, 04:21 the follow-on is still here because every political season, 04:26 more in black churches than in white, 04:28 you will see them parading 04:31 the different political candidates 04:33 and giving them a pulpit. 04:34 And, of course, 04:36 we're always discussing in Liberty particularly, 04:38 you know, have we crossed the line, 04:39 is this inappropriate? 04:41 The government hasn't generally acted against any of this, 04:43 but it sort of breaks 04:45 the spirit of what we've had for a long time. 04:47 So this is a good question 04:49 because we've taken a strong stand 04:51 against partisan positions 04:53 in our church leadership or our pastors. 04:55 Well, you've thrown in 04:56 what I wanted to make the key. 04:58 But partisan political positions, 05:00 but Ellen White herself, 05:02 to recur to one of the founders to our church, 05:04 stood up in the pulpit and said, 05:05 "Church members should vote against political leaders 05:09 who are supportive of alcohol use." 05:11 So she effectively endorsed candidates in the campaign. 05:13 Well, using them the key that I believe. 05:15 I listened like you do too 05:17 an awful lot of stuff out of Washington 05:19 where there's C-span or the live, 05:21 the hearings, or whatever. 05:24 And then press conferences that follow them. 05:26 And I hear representatives themselves 05:29 and other major players say, 05:31 "I'm not being political in this 05:32 or we can't, we mustn't be political." 05:35 Now, I'm thinking, "What are they talking about? 05:36 It's all political. They are politicians." 05:39 What they really mean is, 05:40 I'm not wanting to be partisan in this. 05:44 And I think this is the key for the churches. 05:46 It's deadly to become a partisan promoter 05:49 or to support... 05:50 Of a party or party time. Right, party loyalty. 05:52 And Ellen White, speaking to Adventist, 05:54 that's exactly what she said. 05:55 She said, 05:56 "Any pastor or teacher that's involved in party, 05:59 politics should resign or be fired." 06:02 At the same time, 06:03 that she was front and center 06:04 in an overtly political movement 06:07 because of prohibition. 06:08 Because it was a deeply moral issue. 06:10 And it wasn't party oriented. 06:12 And just because some things... 06:14 A moral issue 06:16 has a political dimension to it, 06:17 doesn't mean that we can't be involved 06:19 in the moral question as Christians. 06:21 No, and I think we should be. Right. 06:23 If Christianity has to relate to daily life 06:26 or it's not important. 06:27 Well, and a good example I like to pull from scripture 06:30 is John the Baptist 06:32 had the highest role of any of the biblical prophets 06:35 in making the way for Christ. 06:37 Why did John the Baptist die? Why was he in jail? 06:40 He spoke against the rulers. 06:42 He spoke against the rulers... Or their morality. 06:44 But he spoke about in relation to marriage, right? 06:49 Especially, when you're dealing with a king and a royalty, 06:51 marriage is essentially political question. 06:53 It's a dynastic question. 06:55 Dynastic question of who is gonna be... 06:57 Henry VIII of the Reformation. 06:58 Henry VIII from the Reformation. 07:00 So this was acutely political question 07:02 but it was a central moral question. 07:05 And John the Baptist didn't let the fact 07:07 there were political dimensions 07:08 shy him away from critiquing it as a king... 07:11 critiquing the king on it. 07:13 And I think today, 07:15 "Marriage, oh, it's a political question. 07:18 No, it's a moral question." 07:19 And John the Baptist spoke to it, 07:21 and I think we, as Christians, need to speak to it as well. 07:23 Of course, I believe we need to speak out 07:24 plainly on marriage. 07:26 And, of course, I'm sure you're meaning, 07:28 you know, alternate forms of marriage. 07:29 Traditional marriage. We should speak out on that. 07:31 Where I think we should be very careful 07:34 is trying to legislate our views against 07:38 or for the nonbeliever, that's not given to us. 07:40 Well, it depends on 07:42 what the basis of those views is. 07:44 I agree, if we take the Bible and say, 07:46 because Genesis, 07:47 you know, chapter 3 and it says 07:49 that man shall leave his family and marry his wife. 07:53 We can't legislate based on that. 07:56 But I think that there are grounds 07:57 to say that science, and sociology, 08:00 and child psychology show 08:03 that the traditional family unit 08:04 is very important and healthy for children, 08:07 means that we can put forward those kinds of arguments 08:10 to promote and protect a traditional movement. 08:12 Right, and then it's the largest society 08:15 that includes Christians, non Christians, 08:17 Muslims whatever, Hindus, that's fine. 08:21 They've done it in a secular environment 08:23 on the norms 08:25 that a civil society is based on. 08:28 No, that's right. I think that's right. 08:30 So the Johnson Amendment, if it's undone, 08:34 I don't think 08:35 it's going to change the calculus 08:38 too much for churches. 08:39 Are we really going to want to start 08:41 endorsing political candidates? 08:42 Well, let me throw a wildcard in. 08:43 All right. 08:45 And it goes, it's a jump of logic. 08:46 But if the Johnson Amendment were removed totally 08:49 and if the tendencies 08:51 of what we know of some church groups 08:53 for political actions were indulged, 08:55 how would that differ 08:56 from allowing Sharia law to have its way. 09:00 No, we don't. 09:02 But is it structurally much different? 09:05 Well, I mean, if the Johnson Amendment 09:09 was done away with it, it would give churches 09:12 the ability to speak without hindrance. 09:15 No, it's more than speak, 09:16 to act as political action groups. 09:18 So they would have a political agenda 09:19 by definition. 09:21 No, but it still wouldn't do away 09:22 with the first amendment. 09:23 They shouldn't be able to enact public policies 09:27 that were based on their particular biblical views 09:29 without justification. 09:31 But their tendency could... 09:33 I mean, to jump ahead 09:34 just to get your attention and the others, 09:37 but their tendency would be to do 09:39 what those proponents of Sharia law want to. 09:43 We would implement, yes, that there will be... 09:44 And remember, the West has been through it. 09:46 You know, I love 09:49 the whole English history period 09:52 around Oliver Cromwell and so on, 09:54 and certainly even before and arguably during his rule, 09:59 this is what was going on. 10:00 It was Holy Writ attempted to be put into civil law. 10:04 Europe has a long history of experimentation 10:07 with implementing the Bible in civil society. 10:11 And Protestants haven't been immune from that... 10:13 It's not good. 10:14 Geneva, New England, the puritans. 10:17 No, there's deep problems to it. 10:19 And so if this rule was overturned, 10:23 it could harbor in a disturbing 10:26 combination of church and state, 10:28 and suddenly, religious churches 10:30 becoming political action centers, 10:33 in ways that could be very unhealthy. 10:35 So, we shouldn't do it. 10:38 Well, but... 10:40 Or is it just a theoretical, 10:41 is it a harmless of an affectation 10:44 of a new order that's come upon us? 10:47 Well, do we want the government legislating 10:50 what can be said in church? 10:51 I mean that's the flip side of it, isn't it? 10:53 I mean, harkening back to Ellen White's day, 10:56 technically what she said getting up 10:58 in the pulpit and saying, 11:00 "You need to vote against 11:01 those who'll promote liquor interest." 11:03 She was endorsing a candidate. 11:04 She even told Seventh-day Adventist 11:06 so important, do it on Sabbath. 11:07 The liquor interest in Battle Creek had moved 11:10 the elections to Saturday in hopes 11:12 that the Adventists would stay home. 11:13 And you're right. 11:15 She got up and said, 11:16 Even if you have to vote on Sabbath... 11:18 Which is very biblical, 11:19 you know, the cows in the well on Sabbath, 11:22 do what you have to do. 11:23 There's a higher moral component 11:26 because the Sabbath is, what is it? 11:29 Jesus says for man. 11:30 It was made for man. Sabbath was made for man. 11:32 That's right. It's for our benefit. 11:34 But if a higher moral call comes on Sabbath, 11:38 you do it even if it involves driving the ambulance, right? 11:41 Yeah, driving the ambulance, 11:43 but not chasing the ambulance as a lawyer. 11:45 No, no. 11:46 Well, it's a buoys comment, what can I say? 11:49 So I do think that 11:51 there's an inappropriate infringement 11:54 but in changing the law, 11:55 it might then incentivize people 11:58 to abuse at the other direction. 12:00 And presently, the IRS has been pointed out 12:03 by my friends in Washington is not enforcing the law. 12:07 Black churches especially, 12:09 all the time candidate and promoting candidate 12:11 and voter rolls. 12:13 But the IRS is simply chosen not to intervene. 12:16 Well, the IRS hasn't 12:18 but there've been some threats made. 12:20 And I think there are even some charges 12:22 of cycle or two ago. 12:24 And I saw the pattern to that, 12:27 the prevailing party or the one that's in power 12:30 or things that will be in power are not troubled 12:33 when the churches are used to promote their view. 12:36 But they have picked a little bit 12:37 on the opponents 12:40 and that's where I think it could get nasty. 12:43 Religion can be problematic when it's alongside power 12:47 as it was in the Middle Ages, 12:49 but if religion throws its slot in 12:51 with the political group that loses power, 12:53 then religion will be harmed. 12:55 It'll be persecuted. 12:56 Yeah, along with the political group. 12:58 I've seen that happen with our own church 12:59 in certain countries 13:01 where they were unduly friendly with the power 13:02 that was voted out 13:04 and then the other stand on them. 13:05 We don't want that. 13:07 Don't become too close to any political group. 13:08 So let's take a short break. 13:11 We'll be back to continue 13:12 this discussion with guest, Nic Miller. 13:14 Thank you. |
Revised 2017-04-13