Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
bringing you discussion,
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analysis,
up-to-date information,
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and all the news
that you need to know,
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and the insights
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you need to know
on religious liberty.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine,
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and my guest on the
program, Nic Miller lawyer,
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professor of history at
Andrews University, author.
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Yes.
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Maybe it's time
to show your book,
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on The Reformation.
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I want everyone to show that
"Reformation and the Remnant",
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500 years of
Protestant Reformation.
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As a lawyer, I
know particularly,
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you're in tune with the
lot of the current developments
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on civil and religious liberty.
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Something that's got
people a little bit nervous,
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and others maybe even excited,
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the idea that the
Johnson Amendment,
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I think it was called,
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a prohibition on church
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political
activity maybe removed.
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And a few years ago,
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there was an
active intention to change
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this with the Jones
Amendment, it was called,
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the Johnson rule, I think,
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but the Jones Amendment
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which would have made churches
political action groups.
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So it's all 501c3 is right,
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it doesn't just
single out churches
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but it includes
churches under this umbrella.
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Well, but the intention
was to, as D. James Kennedy
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who I
interviewed before he died,
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he says, "Unbind the churches."
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So we can speak
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to political
matters more directly.
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Well, become political...
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No, it was never
a couched language,
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they wanted the
churches to be able to raise
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unlimited political funds
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to support parties
and candidates directly.
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So we should let our
viewers know the background
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as to what it
does and doesn't do.
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So as things under
the Johnson Amendment
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which was passed
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in the first half
of the 20th century,
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I'm forgetting the exact year...
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During the Johnson era.
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Johnson era.
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It said that the
churches could not
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endorse
candidates for public office
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and you could only do
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a minimal amount
of issue promotion.
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So, as a church,
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you can talk about
abortion or the environment,
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but it has to be
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a small
percentage of your activity.
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So you're not forbidden
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from talking to political issues
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but the red line is
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that you're not
supposed to cross
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is actually endorsing
or promoting candidates
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for public office.
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Well, and this is actually
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something that
most churches avoided
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even before the
Johnson Amendment, right?
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I mean, our church, the
Adventist Church typically
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was told not to take stands
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on parties and political issues.
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Well, the way I'll card on this,
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and I think it's why
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it was a context of
the Johnson Act anyway,
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was the Civil Rights movement,
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from its beginning
involved direct church action
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and church leadership,
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and they were overtly political.
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That did happen in
the 1950s and '60s,
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the foundations of
the Civil Rights Movement
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with the
African-American churches
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and many...
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Martin Luther
King Jr., of course,
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a pastor in his own right,
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but it was an issue
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and so they didn't get
in trouble for the issue
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but they were
clearly restrained from...
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You know, I'm not criticizing
the Civil Rights Movement.
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I know.
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I mean, I think the central role
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of the Southern
Baptist was vital.
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I mean, it gave
the moral high ground
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and it gave them an
organizational base.
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Oh, the Southern Baptist
weren't that involved with it,
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except for the Baptists
who were blacks in the South.
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But there were
Southern Baptists.
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With those Baptists, yeah.
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Yeah, things have changed,
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you know, the shifting attitude.
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The Southern Baptist Convention
has now come out very strongly
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in favor of and apologized
for its discrimination but...
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Yeah, it's a good qualifier.
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Martin Lither King was
from the Baptist tradition.
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In the south, correct. Yeah.
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But at that time,
I think it was good.
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And in a way,
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the follow-on is still here
because every political season,
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more in black
churches than in white,
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you will see them parading
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the different
political candidates
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and giving them a pulpit.
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And, of course,
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we're always discussing
in Liberty particularly,
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you know, have
we crossed the line,
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is this inappropriate?
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The government hasn't generally
acted against any of this,
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but it sort of breaks
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the spirit of what
we've had for a long time.
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So this is a good question
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because we've
taken a strong stand
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against partisan positions
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in our church
leadership or our pastors.
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Well, you've thrown in
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what I wanted to make the key.
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But partisan
political positions,
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but Ellen White herself,
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to recur to one of the
founders to our church,
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stood up in the pulpit and said,
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"Church members should
vote against political leaders
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who are
supportive of alcohol use."
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So she effectively endorsed
candidates in the campaign.
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Well, using them
the key that I believe.
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I listened like you do too
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an awful lot of
stuff out of Washington
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where there's
C-span or the live,
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the hearings, or whatever.
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And then press
conferences that follow them.
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And I hear
representatives themselves
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and other major players say,
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"I'm not being political in this
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or we can't, we
mustn't be political."
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Now, I'm thinking,
"What are they talking about?
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It's all political.
They are politicians."
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What they really mean is,
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I'm not wanting to
be partisan in this.
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And I think this is
the key for the churches.
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It's deadly to
become a partisan promoter
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or to support...
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Of a party or party
time. Right, party loyalty.
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And Ellen White,
speaking to Adventist,
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that's exactly what she said.
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She said,
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"Any pastor or teacher
that's involved in party,
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politics should
resign or be fired."
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At the same time,
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that she was front and center
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in an overtly political movement
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because of prohibition.
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Because it was a
deeply moral issue.
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And it wasn't party oriented.
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And just because some things...
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A moral issue
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has a political dimension to it,
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doesn't mean that
we can't be involved
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in the moral
question as Christians.
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No, and I think
we should be. Right.
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If Christianity has
to relate to daily life
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or it's not important.
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Well, and a good example I
like to pull from scripture
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is John the Baptist
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had the highest role of
any of the biblical prophets
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in making the way for Christ.
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Why did John the
Baptist die? Why was he in jail?
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He spoke against the rulers.
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He spoke against the
rulers... Or their morality.
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But he spoke about in
relation to marriage, right?
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Especially, when you're dealing
with a king and a royalty,
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marriage is
essentially political question.
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It's a dynastic question.
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Dynastic question
of who is gonna be...
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Henry VIII of the Reformation.
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Henry VIII from the Reformation.
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So this was
acutely political question
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but it was a
central moral question.
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And John the
Baptist didn't let the fact
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there were political dimensions
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shy him away from
critiquing it as a king...
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critiquing the king on it.
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And I think today,
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"Marriage, oh, it's
a political question.
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No, it's a moral question."
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And John the
Baptist spoke to it,
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and I think we, as Christians,
need to speak to it as well.
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Of course, I
believe we need to speak out
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plainly on marriage.
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And, of course, I'm
sure you're meaning,
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you know,
alternate forms of marriage.
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Traditional marriage. We
should speak out on that.
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Where I think we
should be very careful
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is trying to
legislate our views against
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or for the nonbeliever,
that's not given to us.
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Well, it depends on
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what the basis
of those views is.
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I agree, if we
take the Bible and say,
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because Genesis,
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you know, chapter 3 and it says
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that man shall leave his
family and marry his wife.
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We can't
legislate based on that.
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But I think that
there are grounds
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to say that
science, and sociology,
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and child psychology show
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that the traditional family unit
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is very important
and healthy for children,
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means that we can put
forward those kinds of arguments
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to promote and protect
a traditional movement.
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Right, and then
it's the largest society
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that includes
Christians, non Christians,
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Muslims whatever,
Hindus, that's fine.
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They've done it in
a secular environment
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on the norms
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that a civil
society is based on.
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No, that's right.
I think that's right.
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So the Johnson
Amendment, if it's undone,
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I don't think
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it's going to
change the calculus
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too much for churches.
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Are we really
going to want to start
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endorsing political candidates?
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Well, let me
throw a wildcard in.
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All right.
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And it goes,
it's a jump of logic.
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But if the Johnson
Amendment were removed totally
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and if the tendencies
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of what we know
of some church groups
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for political
actions were indulged,
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how would that differ
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from allowing
Sharia law to have its way.
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No, we don't.
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But is it
structurally much different?
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Well, I mean, if
the Johnson Amendment
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was done away with
it, it would give churches
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the ability to
speak without hindrance.
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No, it's more than speak,
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to act as
political action groups.
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So they would
have a political agenda
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by definition.
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No, but it
still wouldn't do away
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with the first amendment.
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They shouldn't be able
to enact public policies
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that were based on their
particular biblical views
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without justification.
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But their tendency could...
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I mean, to jump ahead
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just to get your
attention and the others,
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but their
tendency would be to do
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what those proponents
of Sharia law want to.
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We would implement,
yes, that there will be...
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And remember, the
West has been through it.
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You know, I love
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the whole English history period
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around Oliver
Cromwell and so on,
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and certainly even before
and arguably during his rule,
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this is what was going on.
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It was Holy Writ attempted
to be put into civil law.
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Europe has a long
history of experimentation
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with implementing the
Bible in civil society.
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And Protestants haven't
been immune from that...
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It's not good.
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Geneva, New
England, the puritans.
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No, there's deep problems to it.
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And so if this
rule was overturned,
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it could harbor in a disturbing
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combination of church and state,
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and suddenly, religious churches
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becoming
political action centers,
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in ways that
could be very unhealthy.
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So, we shouldn't do it.
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Well, but...
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Or is it just a theoretical,
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is it a harmless
of an affectation
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of a new order
that's come upon us?
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Well, do we want the
government legislating
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what can be said in church?
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I mean that's the
flip side of it, isn't it?
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I mean, harkening
back to Ellen White's day,
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technically what
she said getting up
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in the pulpit and saying,
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"You need to vote against
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those who'll
promote liquor interest."
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She was endorsing a candidate.
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She even told
Seventh-day Adventist
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so important, do it on Sabbath.
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The liquor interest
in Battle Creek had moved
00:11:07.86\00:11:10.77
the elections to
Saturday in hopes
00:11:10.80\00:11:12.57
that the
Adventists would stay home.
00:11:12.60\00:11:13.94
And you're right.
00:11:13.97\00:11:15.30
She got up and said,
00:11:15.34\00:11:16.67
Even if you have
to vote on Sabbath...
00:11:16.71\00:11:18.04
Which is very biblical,
00:11:18.07\00:11:19.41
you know, the cows
in the well on Sabbath,
00:11:19.44\00:11:22.38
do what you have to do.
00:11:22.41\00:11:23.75
There's a higher moral component
00:11:23.78\00:11:26.11
because the
Sabbath is, what is it?
00:11:26.15\00:11:29.28
Jesus says for man.
00:11:29.32\00:11:30.65
It was made for man.
Sabbath was made for man.
00:11:30.69\00:11:32.29
That's right.
It's for our benefit.
00:11:32.32\00:11:34.12
But if a higher moral
call comes on Sabbath,
00:11:34.16\00:11:38.56
you do it even if it involves
driving the ambulance, right?
00:11:38.59\00:11:41.63
Yeah, driving the ambulance,
00:11:41.66\00:11:43.26
but not chasing the
ambulance as a lawyer.
00:11:43.30\00:11:45.10
No, no.
00:11:45.13\00:11:46.47
Well, it's a buoys
comment, what can I say?
00:11:46.50\00:11:49.57
So I do think that
00:11:49.60\00:11:51.77
there's an
inappropriate infringement
00:11:51.81\00:11:54.01
but in changing the law,
00:11:54.04\00:11:55.91
it might then incentivize people
00:11:55.94\00:11:58.11
to abuse at the other direction.
00:11:58.15\00:12:00.08
And presently, the
IRS has been pointed out
00:12:00.12\00:12:03.72
by my friends in Washington
is not enforcing the law.
00:12:03.75\00:12:07.06
Black churches especially,
00:12:07.09\00:12:09.02
all the time candidate
and promoting candidate
00:12:09.06\00:12:11.73
and voter rolls.
00:12:11.76\00:12:13.60
But the IRS is simply
chosen not to intervene.
00:12:13.63\00:12:16.20
Well, the IRS hasn't
00:12:16.23\00:12:17.97
but there've been
some threats made.
00:12:18.00\00:12:20.14
And I think there
are even some charges
00:12:20.17\00:12:22.14
of cycle or two ago.
00:12:22.17\00:12:24.47
And I saw the pattern to that,
00:12:24.51\00:12:27.71
the prevailing party
or the one that's in power
00:12:27.74\00:12:30.95
or things that will be
in power are not troubled
00:12:30.98\00:12:33.21
when the churches are
used to promote their view.
00:12:33.25\00:12:36.48
But they have
picked a little bit
00:12:36.52\00:12:37.89
on the opponents
00:12:37.92\00:12:40.26
and that's where I
think it could get nasty.
00:12:40.29\00:12:43.43
Religion can be problematic
when it's alongside power
00:12:43.46\00:12:47.83
as it was in the Middle Ages,
00:12:47.86\00:12:49.33
but if religion
throws its slot in
00:12:49.36\00:12:51.47
with the political
group that loses power,
00:12:51.50\00:12:53.94
then religion will be harmed.
00:12:53.97\00:12:55.30
It'll be persecuted.
00:12:55.34\00:12:56.67
Yeah, along with
the political group.
00:12:56.71\00:12:58.04
I've seen that
happen with our own church
00:12:58.07\00:12:59.71
in certain countries
00:12:59.74\00:13:01.08
where they were unduly
friendly with the power
00:13:01.11\00:13:02.64
that was voted out
00:13:02.68\00:13:04.25
and then the
other stand on them.
00:13:04.28\00:13:05.81
We don't want that.
00:13:05.85\00:13:07.18
Don't become too close
to any political group.
00:13:07.22\00:13:08.95
So let's take a short break.
00:13:08.98\00:13:11.05
We'll be back to continue
00:13:11.09\00:13:12.65
this discussion
with guest, Nic Miller.
00:13:12.69\00:13:14.32
Thank you.
00:13:14.36\00:13:15.69