Participants: Lincoln Steed (Host), Nicolas Miller
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI000352B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:06 Before the break with guest Nick Miller, 00:11 we were debating rather furiously. 00:14 But we actually we agree on this a lot. 00:17 The importance on the dangers 00:18 of this recent presidential action, 00:22 limiting immigration from certain countries 00:25 for fairly short time period, 00:27 and I think we agreed 00:29 that it's not legally as bad as it appears but perhaps, 00:32 behind the scenes 00:33 the attitudes that represents it is very danger. 00:35 Well, just to clarify, it's, it's a ban on all refuges. 00:39 Right. 00:40 For 120 days which is not too long. 00:43 But these seven countries indefinitely, 00:46 so we don't know how long that will continue for, 00:49 so it's not all just a short period. 00:51 Well, I could play the devil's advocate on this, 00:53 and I think it's troubling 00:56 if they were going to have such a ban, 00:57 why wouldn't say Saudi Arabia, and... 01:01 Well, someone had raised this. 01:03 And some other Middle Eastern countries 01:04 be included? 01:05 So, 19 of the 20 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia. 01:09 Right, even as it shows a certain prejudice. 01:11 It also, also shows our strange alliances that are... 01:15 And where our business interest lies, 01:17 someone pointed out. 01:18 So, you know, I'm not sure in itself this is law 01:22 that reveals deep prejudice, 01:24 but there is some growing prejudice behind this. 01:27 I think that's right. 01:29 And I don't know the full answer, 01:30 I think we're all being rushed 01:33 to a certain polarizing world situation. 01:38 I do believe that the Muslim community 01:41 haven't done, some have done a lot, 01:43 but overall they haven't adequately 01:46 distanced themselves 01:47 from some of these heinous acts. 01:50 Well, are you familiar 01:51 with the Amman accords and statements. 01:55 I mean, in the early 2000's? Oh, I know this. 01:57 All the countries of the Middle East 02:00 came together with the leading religious scholars 02:03 and openly condemned terrorist attacks, 02:07 suicide attacks, the attacks on innocence 02:11 as contrary to Islam and contrary to the Quran, 02:15 and ISIS has been condemned in similar fashion 02:18 by this Muslim both civic and religious leaders. 02:21 And we don't talk much about this in the West 02:23 and give it the attention that it deserves. 02:25 That's what I'm saying consistently 02:27 there have been some, 02:28 this was one of the better things. 02:30 Although, I read the Quran 02:31 and I don't buy that it's opposed to the Quran. 02:34 Have you read the Old Testament as well? 02:36 There's a lot of things in the Quran as well... 02:37 No, but the, and the Old Testament 02:38 needs to be put in context. 02:40 Well, some would say 02:41 the Quran needs to be put in context as well. 02:43 Well, I had a few Imams on this program too. 02:47 No, I think the best thing to say about the Quran 02:50 which is said by Muslim is el-Sisi, 02:53 the general now that rules Egypt, 02:56 he's called for reformation in his own religion 03:00 where they repudiate this. 03:04 No, it's the average Muslim that caused this, 03:07 but many mullahs and imams have used the Quran 03:12 and incited populations improperly, I think. 03:15 Well, you know, who can disagree with that? 03:17 The problem that faces Islam is that, 03:23 they haven't experienced 03:24 the separation of church and state 03:25 like we have in the west. 03:27 Now, you're getting to it. I was going to say that before. 03:28 And that is the cultural conundrum 03:33 that we're facing 03:34 because that's just an undeniable truth of Islam. 03:39 And, of course, other groups have problems with it too. 03:42 But this is structurally built into Islam 03:45 that there should be no separation 03:46 between church and state. 03:48 I make the same comment about Roman Catholicism, 03:50 or the papacy, 03:52 here is the state masquerading as a church 03:55 or a church masquerading as the state. 03:57 By its very nature that is problematic. 04:00 I mean, they have the right to be, and do, 04:02 and whatever but to try to meld that together 04:05 with the constitutional separation of church and state 04:08 is an unholy marriage. 04:09 Well, until about 400 to 500 years ago 04:11 Christianity or Christendom... 04:13 Didn't see it either. Didn't see it. 04:14 That's why I used the term reformation... 04:16 We need to talk about that. 04:18 And we will have a program coming up 04:20 about 500 years of the reformation 04:22 and what that means. 04:23 But in talking about Islam, 04:25 it's interesting I've developed the relationship 04:27 with an imam close to my home church 04:29 and visited his mosque 04:31 and I feel this is the time when our Muslim neighbors 04:35 need to know they have friends. 04:38 There are hate crimes on the rise. 04:40 And as I've gotten to know my Muslim friends, 04:43 it's clear that they appreciate 04:46 the peace and pluralism of America. 04:48 Oh, absolutely. 04:50 The imam that I have this, this relationship with, 04:53 we were at lunch in my university cafeteria 04:56 little while back. 04:57 And we got talking about 04:58 the separation of church and state. 05:00 I was interested to know what he thought. 05:02 He grew up and did his study in Egypt. 05:05 And so he's looking at what's happening in Egypt now 05:08 with the government controlling the imams, 05:11 what they can say, what they can do. 05:12 And he says, 05:14 "Your American system is much better. 05:15 I like the separation of church and state." 05:18 So when, when Muslims come west, 05:22 they are not bent at least... 05:24 No, and I think it's, it's one of the success... 05:25 On jihad... 05:27 It's a success stories of the modern world 05:30 that the United States has been a moderating 05:33 and a calming influence on immigrants from all over 05:37 and Islamic populations are no different. 05:41 I don't think it's true that the United States 05:43 is hotbed of radical Islam. 05:46 I don't think at all. 05:47 Europe has much more of a problem and, of course, 05:50 the Islamic world is facing a huge crisis. 05:54 And that's why el-Sisi says, 05:56 "We need the reformation within our system." 05:58 And why has America done so much better than Europe? 06:00 Separation of church and state. 06:01 I would propose, because of our pluralism 06:03 Muslim and immigrant groups come 06:05 and they assimilate, 06:07 they become part of our society in ways 06:09 that the Europeans don't. 06:11 It doesn't happen in Europe. 06:12 And I think we both agreed that this recent executive action, 06:18 while it has a certain logic behind it, 06:20 is really counterproductive 06:22 because it throws the wrong signal. 06:24 Well, it's going to put us on the road 06:26 to becoming more alike Europe 06:28 where we have balkanized ethnic and religious groups 06:31 that don't assimilate 06:32 and therefore become hotbeds of extremism. 06:36 You know, I think as Christians, 06:38 we need to think about this. 06:39 The Bible has a teaching on immigrants, 06:41 did you know that? 06:42 I thought a few verses that were worth sharing. 06:44 It's strange talking about this... 06:45 Strange. But it is with the new guys. 06:47 Well, the Book of Leviticus says that, 06:50 "But the stranger that dwelt with you 06:52 shall be unto you as one born among you, 06:55 and thou shall love him as thyself, 06:59 for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt", 07:01 that's Leviticus 19:34. 07:03 It talks about allowing him to glean in the vineyards 07:07 along with the poor. 07:09 Also, Leviticus 24:22 says, " 07:13 You shall have one manner of law, 07:14 as well as for the stranger, 07:16 as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God. 07:19 The Bible knew about equal protection of the law 07:22 in relation to race and religion. 07:25 Now, it's not the religion per se, 07:27 but I think an aspect of Islam 07:30 that derived directly from its Arabian influence, 07:35 is this hospitality and this, this cult charities. 07:40 So you can find the same thing 07:42 within Islam if you look for it. 07:44 Well, indeed, in fact, 07:47 Muslims have a higher sense than many Christians do. 07:50 There is a teaching of hospitality, isn't there? 07:53 Three days, taking care of a stranger who is in need. 07:56 In fact, if Jesus was telling the good Samaritan story today, 08:00 have you wondered 08:01 who he would make the Samaritan? 08:03 Oh, I think there is no question. 08:04 The Samaritan doesn't mean anything to us. 08:05 We don't have prejudices against them, 08:08 but in Christ's day the Jews thought 08:09 the Samaritans were possessed by demons 08:12 and were the false religion 08:13 as contrasted with the Jewish religion. 08:15 Well, who fits that bill today? 08:17 I think Islam. It's mighty closely. 08:20 The good Samaritan if Christ was telling the story 08:22 would be a Muslim imam 08:24 who is showing the hospitality of the Muslim world 08:29 as opposed to... 08:30 I'm mulling that over. I'm willing to accept it. 08:32 It's worth remembering, though, 08:34 many people might have forgotten, 08:35 the Samaritans were those that stay behind 08:38 or were left behind in one of the captivities. 08:40 Right. 08:42 And, so they were Jews to start with 08:44 who adopted more of the local animistic 08:47 or pagan beliefs. 08:49 On the place of worshiping scenario. 08:50 Right, so it deviated from the truth. 08:52 It really wasn't a total other religion 08:55 because the Samaritans had many aspects in common. 08:57 Right. 08:59 And I guess, we can say that with Islam. 09:00 With Islam too, the Old Testament... 09:02 They hark back to the Old Testament 09:04 and, of course, 09:05 it goes back to the blood feud 09:07 between the two sons of Abraham. 09:11 Right. Ishmael and Isaac. 09:15 And it is interesting to read the Quran. 09:17 It tells some of the same stories 09:19 but with the twist. 09:20 Yes, yes. Indeed. 09:22 And this being the mahoosive time 09:25 to bring up something that's I found offensive. 09:27 A few people have gone off, and made fools of themselves 09:31 by questioning whether Islam worships the same God. 09:34 And what is your view on that? 09:36 Of course, they worship the same God. 09:37 They describe Him in a way that I'm uncomfortable with. 09:40 But they're calling on the Ancient of Days. 09:43 They have 99 names of God, right, 09:46 which are his attributes, just, and righteous, and holy, 09:49 and if you look at those attributes, 09:52 there is not one that really Christians don't agree with. 09:54 No. 09:55 I think that's, that is a very dangerous line to go 09:58 to say that they are not even worshipping God. 10:00 Same God. 10:02 They say they are worshipping the same God. 10:05 Within Christianity, we all worship the same God 10:08 but it's described, 10:09 He's described or His laws or so... 10:11 These laws of God and... 10:12 Right, I'm uncomfortable with how they interpret them. 10:14 But I don't question 10:15 that the Roman Catholics worship the God of the Bible. 10:18 Yes, I think that's important cause otherwise you will say 10:20 they are worshiping the devil essentially. 10:22 Right. 10:23 Just like the Jews said about the Samaritans. 10:24 And that is where religion really turns toxic 10:26 when you cast the other as an absolute evil. 10:29 Right. 10:30 Because in religion, evil is to be destroyed 10:32 or to be to taken away, 10:35 you know, it's the ultimate other. 10:36 The only thing to do is crusade against it. 10:38 Not bad word. 10:40 Exactly, that's the point. Yeah. 10:42 Now, there's no question 10:43 that I think this recent action 10:45 is a call to a soul to be more charitable, 10:47 to be more understanding not to polarize communities 10:51 that doesn't work well. 10:52 At the same time, 10:54 we shouldn't just gloss over very real differences. 10:57 We're not of the one belief 10:59 and syncretism is not the answer to this. 11:01 No, no, that's right. 11:03 We as Christians need to have a sense 11:07 of what our Holy Book calls us to 11:10 "Of a care for the stranger and the alien, 11:13 whether they'd be of different race 11:15 or different religion." 11:17 We obviously have to be responsible 11:19 with our country and with our families. 11:22 Vetting and screening techniques 11:24 need to be in place to assure our security. 11:28 But ultimately drawing lines 11:31 along religious divisions and identities 11:33 will be neither healthy for ourselves 11:35 or for our country. 11:37 And we need to rediscover the principles of pluralism, 11:41 separation of church and state in religious freedom. 11:45 One of the most charitable provisions 11:48 of the Old Testament system 11:50 was the establishment of the cities of refuge. 11:54 Whereby anyone escaping justice 11:56 or any sort of a chequered past could go to that city 12:00 and obtain literal refuge from punishment 12:03 and from any number of harassments. 12:06 The nation of Israel too, 12:08 as they were moving out into a new land 12:10 and fighting pitch battles against their opponents, 12:13 still those same opponents 12:15 could gain refuge with God's people 12:18 if they joined with them. 12:19 Always forgiven and they were embraced 12:22 by the world. 12:23 I think that principle can be applied today 12:26 in an enlightened nation like the United States. 12:29 We should be prepared to embrace and shelter 12:32 those who have come 12:33 even from disturbingly violent backgrounds. 12:37 And in spite 12:39 of the complicating political situation, 12:41 charity is always the best policy. 12:45 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2017-04-06