Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Nick Miller,
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we were debating
rather furiously.
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But we actually we
agree on this a lot.
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The importance on the dangers
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of this recent
presidential action,
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limiting immigration
from certain countries
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for fairly short time period,
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and I think we agreed
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that it's not legally as
bad as it appears but perhaps,
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behind the scenes
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the attitudes that
represents it is very danger.
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Well, just to clarify,
it's, it's a ban on all refuges.
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Right.
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For 120 days
which is not too long.
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But these seven
countries indefinitely,
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so we don't know how
long that will continue for,
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so it's not all
just a short period.
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Well, I could play the
devil's advocate on this,
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and I think it's troubling
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if they were going
to have such a ban,
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why wouldn't say
Saudi Arabia, and...
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Well, someone had raised this.
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And some other
Middle Eastern countries
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be included?
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So, 19 of the 20 9/11 attackers
were from Saudi Arabia.
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Right, even as it
shows a certain prejudice.
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It also, also shows our
strange alliances that are...
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And where our
business interest lies,
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someone pointed out.
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So, you know, I'm not
sure in itself this is law
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that reveals deep prejudice,
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but there is some
growing prejudice behind this.
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I think that's right.
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And I don't
know the full answer,
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I think we're all being rushed
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to a certain
polarizing world situation.
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I do believe that
the Muslim community
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haven't done,
some have done a lot,
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but overall they
haven't adequately
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distanced themselves
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from some of these heinous acts.
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Well, are you familiar
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with the Amman
accords and statements.
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I mean, in the early
2000's? Oh, I know this.
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All the countries
of the Middle East
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came together with the
leading religious scholars
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and openly
condemned terrorist attacks,
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suicide attacks,
the attacks on innocence
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as contrary to Islam
and contrary to the Quran,
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and ISIS has been
condemned in similar fashion
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by this Muslim both
civic and religious leaders.
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And we don't talk
much about this in the West
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and give it the
attention that it deserves.
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That's what I'm
saying consistently
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there have been some,
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this was one of
the better things.
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Although, I read the Quran
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and I don't buy that
it's opposed to the Quran.
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Have you read the
Old Testament as well?
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There's a lot of
things in the Quran as well...
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No, but the, and
the Old Testament
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needs to be put in context.
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Well, some would say
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the Quran needs to be
put in context as well.
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Well, I had a few
Imams on this program too.
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No, I think the best
thing to say about the Quran
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which is said by
Muslim is el-Sisi,
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the general now
that rules Egypt,
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he's called for
reformation in his own religion
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where they repudiate this.
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No, it's the average
Muslim that caused this,
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but many mullahs and
imams have used the Quran
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and incited
populations improperly, I think.
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Well, you know, who
can disagree with that?
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The problem that
faces Islam is that,
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they haven't experienced
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the separation
of church and state
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like we have in the west.
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Now, you're getting to it. I
was going to say that before.
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And that is the
cultural conundrum
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that we're facing
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because that's just an
undeniable truth of Islam.
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And, of course, other groups
have problems with it too.
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But this is
structurally built into Islam
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that there
should be no separation
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between church and state.
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I make the same comment
about Roman Catholicism,
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or the papacy,
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here is the state
masquerading as a church
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or a church
masquerading as the state.
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By its very nature
that is problematic.
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I mean, they have
the right to be, and do,
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and whatever but to
try to meld that together
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with the constitutional
separation of church and state
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is an unholy marriage.
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Well, until about
400 to 500 years ago
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Christianity or Christendom...
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Didn't see it
either. Didn't see it.
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That's why I used
the term reformation...
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We need to talk about that.
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And we will have
a program coming up
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about 500 years
of the reformation
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and what that means.
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But in talking about Islam,
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it's interesting I've
developed the relationship
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with an imam
close to my home church
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and visited his mosque
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and I feel this is the
time when our Muslim neighbors
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need to know they have friends.
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There are hate
crimes on the rise.
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And as I've gotten to
know my Muslim friends,
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it's clear that they appreciate
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the peace and
pluralism of America.
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Oh, absolutely.
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The imam that I have
this, this relationship with,
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we were at lunch in
my university cafeteria
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little while back.
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And we got talking about
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the separation
of church and state.
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I was interested to
know what he thought.
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He grew up and did
his study in Egypt.
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And so he's looking at
what's happening in Egypt now
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with the government
controlling the imams,
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what they can
say, what they can do.
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And he says,
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"Your American
system is much better.
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I like the
separation of church and state."
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So when, when Muslims come west,
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they are not bent at least...
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No, and I think it's,
it's one of the success...
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On jihad...
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It's a success
stories of the modern world
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that the United
States has been a moderating
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and a calming influence
on immigrants from all over
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and Islamic
populations are no different.
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I don't think it's
true that the United States
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is hotbed of radical Islam.
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I don't think at all.
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Europe has much more of
a problem and, of course,
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the Islamic world is
facing a huge crisis.
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And that's why el-Sisi says,
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"We need the
reformation within our system."
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And why has America done
so much better than Europe?
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Separation of church and state.
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I would propose,
because of our pluralism
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Muslim and immigrant groups come
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and they assimilate,
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they become part
of our society in ways
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that the Europeans don't.
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It doesn't happen in Europe.
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And I think we both agreed that
this recent executive action,
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while it has a
certain logic behind it,
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is really counterproductive
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because it
throws the wrong signal.
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Well, it's going
to put us on the road
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to becoming more alike Europe
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where we have balkanized
ethnic and religious groups
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that don't assimilate
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and therefore become
hotbeds of extremism.
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You know, I think as Christians,
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we need to think about this.
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The Bible has a
teaching on immigrants,
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did you know that?
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I thought a few verses
that were worth sharing.
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It's strange
talking about this...
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Strange. But it
is with the new guys.
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Well, the Book of
Leviticus says that,
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"But the stranger
that dwelt with you
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shall be unto you
as one born among you,
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and thou shall
love him as thyself,
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for ye were strangers
in the land of Egypt",
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that's Leviticus 19:34.
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It talks about allowing
him to glean in the vineyards
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along with the poor.
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Also, Leviticus 24:22 says, "
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You shall have
one manner of law,
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as well as for the stranger,
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as for one of your own country:
for I am the Lord your God.
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The Bible knew about
equal protection of the law
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in relation to
race and religion.
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Now, it's not
the religion per se,
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but I think an aspect of Islam
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that derived directly
from its Arabian influence,
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is this hospitality and
this, this cult charities.
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So you can find the same thing
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within Islam if you look for it.
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Well, indeed, in fact,
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Muslims have a higher
sense than many Christians do.
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There is a teaching of
hospitality, isn't there?
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Three days, taking care
of a stranger who is in need.
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In fact, if Jesus was telling
the good Samaritan story today,
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have you wondered
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who he would make the Samaritan?
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Oh, I think
there is no question.
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The Samaritan
doesn't mean anything to us.
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We don't have
prejudices against them,
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but in Christ's
day the Jews thought
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the Samaritans
were possessed by demons
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and were the false religion
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as contrasted with
the Jewish religion.
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Well, who fits that bill today?
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I think Islam.
It's mighty closely.
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The good Samaritan if
Christ was telling the story
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would be a Muslim imam
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who is showing the
hospitality of the Muslim world
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as opposed to...
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I'm mulling that over.
I'm willing to accept it.
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It's worth remembering, though,
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many people
might have forgotten,
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the Samaritans were
those that stay behind
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or were left behind in
one of the captivities.
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Right.
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And, so they were
Jews to start with
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who adopted more
of the local animistic
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or pagan beliefs.
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On the place of
worshiping scenario.
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Right, so it
deviated from the truth.
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It really wasn't a
total other religion
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because the Samaritans
had many aspects in common.
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Right.
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And I guess, we can
say that with Islam.
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With Islam too,
the Old Testament...
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They hark back
to the Old Testament
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and, of course,
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it goes back to the blood feud
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between the two sons of Abraham.
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Right. Ishmael and Isaac.
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And it is
interesting to read the Quran.
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It tells some
of the same stories
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but with the twist.
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Yes, yes. Indeed.
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And this being
the mahoosive time
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to bring up something
that's I found offensive.
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A few people have gone off,
and made fools of themselves
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by questioning whether
Islam worships the same God.
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And what is your view on that?
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Of course, they
worship the same God.
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They describe Him in a way
that I'm uncomfortable with.
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But they're calling
on the Ancient of Days.
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They have 99
names of God, right,
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which are his attributes,
just, and righteous, and holy,
00:09:46.15\00:09:49.78
and if you look
at those attributes,
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there is not one that really
Christians don't agree with.
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No.
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I think that's, that is
a very dangerous line to go
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to say that they are
not even worshipping God.
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Same God.
00:10:00.90\00:10:02.23
They say they are
worshipping the same God.
00:10:02.26\00:10:05.23
Within Christianity, we
all worship the same God
00:10:05.27\00:10:08.24
but it's described,
00:10:08.27\00:10:09.60
He's described
or His laws or so...
00:10:09.64\00:10:10.97
These laws of God and...
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Right, I'm uncomfortable
with how they interpret them.
00:10:12.37\00:10:14.18
But I don't question
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that the Roman Catholics
worship the God of the Bible.
00:10:15.58\00:10:18.35
Yes, I think that's important
cause otherwise you will say
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they are worshiping
the devil essentially.
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Right.
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Just like the Jews
said about the Samaritans.
00:10:23.39\00:10:24.72
And that is where
religion really turns toxic
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when you cast the
other as an absolute evil.
00:10:26.92\00:10:29.12
Right.
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Because in religion,
evil is to be destroyed
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or to be to taken away,
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you know, it's
the ultimate other.
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The only thing to do
is crusade against it.
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Not bad word.
00:10:38.87\00:10:40.57
Exactly, that's the point. Yeah.
00:10:40.60\00:10:42.14
Now, there's no question
00:10:42.17\00:10:43.57
that I think this recent action
00:10:43.61\00:10:45.81
is a call to a soul
to be more charitable,
00:10:45.84\00:10:47.88
to be more understanding
not to polarize communities
00:10:47.91\00:10:51.21
that doesn't work well.
00:10:51.25\00:10:52.91
At the same time,
00:10:52.95\00:10:54.28
we shouldn't just gloss
over very real differences.
00:10:54.32\00:10:57.39
We're not of the one belief
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and syncretism is
not the answer to this.
00:10:59.35\00:11:01.59
No, no, that's right.
00:11:01.62\00:11:03.83
We as Christians
need to have a sense
00:11:03.86\00:11:07.06
of what our
Holy Book calls us to
00:11:07.10\00:11:10.73
"Of a care for the
stranger and the alien,
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whether they'd
be of different race
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or different religion."
00:11:15.67\00:11:17.34
We obviously
have to be responsible
00:11:17.37\00:11:19.34
with our country
and with our families.
00:11:19.37\00:11:22.88
Vetting and screening techniques
00:11:22.91\00:11:24.78
need to be in place
to assure our security.
00:11:24.81\00:11:28.78
But ultimately drawing lines
00:11:28.82\00:11:31.12
along religious
divisions and identities
00:11:31.15\00:11:33.59
will be neither
healthy for ourselves
00:11:33.62\00:11:35.69
or for our country.
00:11:35.72\00:11:37.59
And we need to rediscover
the principles of pluralism,
00:11:37.63\00:11:41.10
separation of church and
state in religious freedom.
00:11:41.13\00:11:45.53
One of the most
charitable provisions
00:11:45.57\00:11:48.87
of the Old Testament system
00:11:48.90\00:11:50.94
was the establishment
of the cities of refuge.
00:11:50.97\00:11:54.64
Whereby anyone escaping justice
00:11:54.68\00:11:56.75
or any sort of a chequered
past could go to that city
00:11:56.78\00:12:00.72
and obtain literal
refuge from punishment
00:12:00.75\00:12:03.75
and from any
number of harassments.
00:12:03.79\00:12:06.89
The nation of Israel too,
00:12:06.92\00:12:08.26
as they were
moving out into a new land
00:12:08.29\00:12:10.63
and fighting pitch
battles against their opponents,
00:12:10.66\00:12:13.43
still those same opponents
00:12:13.46\00:12:15.63
could gain
refuge with God's people
00:12:15.66\00:12:18.23
if they joined with them.
00:12:18.27\00:12:19.77
Always forgiven
and they were embraced
00:12:19.80\00:12:22.00
by the world.
00:12:22.04\00:12:23.37
I think that
principle can be applied today
00:12:23.41\00:12:26.01
in an enlightened
nation like the United States.
00:12:26.04\00:12:29.28
We should be prepared
to embrace and shelter
00:12:29.31\00:12:32.48
those who have come
00:12:32.51\00:12:33.92
even from disturbingly
violent backgrounds.
00:12:33.95\00:12:37.89
And in spite
00:12:37.92\00:12:39.25
of the complicating
political situation,
00:12:39.29\00:12:41.29
charity is
always the best policy.
00:12:41.32\00:12:45.09
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:45.13\00:12:48.40